Ratification of Agreement Between the Irvine Unified School District and the Cal

[Irvinecommuter]

Again, many lawyers and doctors choose to specialize because they have financial debt that they must deal with coming out of school that would preclude them from doing more "noble" position. 

I personally would love to work at a non-profit or for a cause but can't because I have student loans to pay and a family to support.

but you know this going in. anyone going to into law or medicine knows they will be in tremendous amounts of debt; if you dont like the debt do something else. no one forced you to have a family to support or buy an overpriced house in irvine to make a payment on. you made these choices for yourself and you whine about not being able to go work at a non-profit. you should have planned better so you could have worked at the non-profit. 

maybe you should have used your intellect and gotten into finance where you dont need to drown yourself in debt and can make more than many lawyers.

You kinda of have it backwards...I didn't buy the house in Irvine or have a family because I wanted work a law firm.  I work at a law firm because I wanted a house in Irvine and a family.  That's exactly the point, I couldn't afford to buy a house in Irvine or have a family working non-profit...so while I had the desire and will to work there, I couldn't because of the financial constraints.

that is perfectly fine. you chose money over fulfillment. as a capitalistic society we cant just arbitrarily determine which jobs are more meaningful to society and determine that those jobs will get paid 6 figures, especially when the taxpayers are footing the bill. supply and demand rules. you have a bunch of people wanting to be teachers so they will get paid accordingly.

Of course we can, we do it all the time.  We don't pay teachers, policeman, or firefighter chump change because we want to encourage good candidates.  Other countries/societies put their own value assignments.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

i would love to work at the San Diego zoo, but i know it doesnt pay much, so im a CPA, that allows me to live the lifestyle i want. besides, there are diminishing returns for great minds to work at zoo (im not calling myself a great mind by the way), school, other government jobs, etc.

it depends on what you are doing at the San Diego Zoo...pretty sure you would be a terrible zoologist. 

Also, returns are relative and not always linked to monetary value.

And aren't many of the greatest minds working in academia and government?

 

[qwerty]

Of course we can, we do it all the time.  We don't pay teachers, policeman, or firefighter chump change because we want to encourage good candidates.  Other countries/societies put their own value assignments.

cops and firefighters are paid what they get because of the dangers of the job, most of those guys dont even have degrees, certainly not attracting good candidates.

 

[qwerty]

i would love to work at the San Diego zoo, but i know it doesnt pay much, so im a CPA, that allows me to live the lifestyle i want. besides, there are diminishing returns for great minds to work at zoo (im not calling myself a great mind by the way), school, other government jobs, etc.

it depends on what you are doing at the San Diego Zoo...pretty sure you would be a terrible zoologist. 

Also, returns are relative and not always linked to monetary value.

And aren't many of the greatest minds working in academia and government?

thats why im a CPA, im pretty sure you would be horrible at anything that involves working with other people.  just keep your head down in the law books son.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Of course we can, we do it all the time.  We don't pay teachers, policeman, or firefighter chump change because we want to encourage good candidates.  Other countries/societies put their own value assignments.

cops and firefighters are paid what they get because of the dangers of the job, most of those guys dont even have degrees, certainly not attracting good candidates.

Wait..that makes no sense.  A good candidate for a police officer or firefighter does not necessary require a degree.  Why do I get a sense that you tie skills solely with education and success with money.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

i would love to work at the San Diego zoo, but i know it doesnt pay much, so im a CPA, that allows me to live the lifestyle i want. besides, there are diminishing returns for great minds to work at zoo (im not calling myself a great mind by the way), school, other government jobs, etc.

it depends on what you are doing at the San Diego Zoo...pretty sure you would be a terrible zoologist. 

Also, returns are relative and not always linked to monetary value.

And aren't many of the greatest minds working in academia and government?

thats why im a CPA, im pretty sure you would be horrible at anything that involves working with other people.  just keep your head down in the law books son.

You apparently then...don't know what a lawyer does.

 

[qwerty]

Scoreboard = money.

Plain and simple. The more you make, the more successful you are. I don't tie anything to education, it's over-rated. That's why I bought in tustin. I don't concern myself with API scores. My kid is either going to be smart or she's not, going to an irvine school wouldn't make a difference in her achievement

 

[qwerty]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

 

[bones]

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[Irvinecommuter]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

IC - you always use lawyers and doctors in your examples.  I know you are a lawyer... is your wife a doctor?

According to wiki, as of April 2011, there were 1,225,452 licensed attorneys in the United States.
According to a recent doctors census (dated 2012), there are 878,194 doctors with active licenses in the US.

I'm a lawyer noob so I wonder if the wiki # for lawyers includes those that flunk the bar exam... I assume no?  If so, there's probably tens of thousands more out there according tohttp://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/.

Wife is not a doctor.  I chose those two because there are usually two occupations that people think they are in the top professions...business, engineer, lawyers, and doctors.

You can find the bar passage rate here: http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Examinations/Statistics.aspx

 

[Irvinecommuter]

That's part of the problem with public sector (and governments), no reliable system to match compensation with performance.

Should a 3-year teacher with passion and drive make as much as a 10-year who is just doing the minimum? Sure. But their pay schedules prevent that.

Goes back to my whole government inefficiency "theory" (since some don't think private is any more efficient).

Government inefficiency does not mean any particular group of or individual employees are inefficient. 

I don't care for seniority very much but it is also a part of the benefit perks of being a teacher.  It's similar to tenureship for professors.

This is exactly the reason why unions are terrible - they protect the bottom 20% of workers who would be fired, and do not incentivize the top 20% of workers who perform above their peers.  Federal workers are unionized as are most government employees at the state and local level. 

Tenure is another idiotic idea... so a professor who "works" for a school can now basically mail it in every day until they can collect their pension while their grad students do all the real work.  All because they have "earned" it by recycling the same lessons from the textbook they wrote over the last 20 years?

It should be pay for performance across the board.  If you are awful at your job, you should not be able to be paid what your peers are making.

People think that you can legislate behavior... but there's a segment of the population that will always try to game the system to take advantage of whatever opportunity they can. 

There are folks who genuinely go to work every day and try to do the right thing and make a difference.  However, those folks are diminished by the number of folks who realize that they can free ride and get paid the same amount due to their union protecting them.  If you are a high achieving worker, what is your union doing for you that allows you to be compensated beyond what your free-riding peers are making?

Unions are necessary for certain industries but not others...and are less and less relevant in a modern age where mental skills are more important/relevant than manual labor.

How do you gauge the "success" of a teacher?  Is it testing?  Is it the joy of the students?  How do you equalize the various factors influencing the learning process that are outside of the control of a teacher?  How do you compare a teacher in Irvine versus a teacher in Compton?

Unions are not necessary anywhere in the modern age.  At this point, everyone has a camera phone and can document any sort of problems in the workplace and put it on youtube or send it to the associated press.  There are no shortages of lawyers willing to exploit other peoples' suffering to make a profit off lawsuits... so the workers have recourse there as well if they are willing to take it to court.

Thankfully, they are a dying breed as the workers have finally realized they are paying union dues and not getting much return on their investment.  In fact, unions block people from joining workforces that are non-union.  Indiana just passed legislation that allowed it to become a "right to work" state just like most of the southern states.  This means that workers do not have to be a union member to work at that plant / factory.

The reason all the foreign auto plants, and some of the Boeing 787 plants are in those states is exactly because they are right to work states.  Which is also the same reason that GM / Ford / Chrysler are not permitted to open new factories in non-union states because that would be creating jobs that are not specifically set aside for unions.  The UAW & AFL / CIO have repeatedly tried to unionize most of those plants and failed... because the workers realize that they are only funding union administrators... not really improving their personal situations.


You gauge the success of the teacher by asking the students directly about their experience.  Didn't you ever fill out a survey the last week of class on how the professor was?

Unions are becoming less and less important but you still have industries (like farm workers and food plants) in which unions are still important.  I don't believe in allowing unions to block others from working somewhere.

Also, the reason why unions are failing is because people rather work than not.  Most people these days are living paycheck to paycheck and cannot afford to strike.  Companies don't pay nearly the same level as they used to so people are just getting by.  It is one thing to fight against decreases in wages and benefits...quite another to fight for more wages and benefits.

Many plants are also automated so there is as much need for skilled workers like there were 30 years ago.

Yes I have done surveys but we were dealing with 7-18 year olds...they would pick the teacher that gave them no homework and let them do everything.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Scoreboard = money.

Plain and simple. The more you make, the more successful you are. I don't tie anything to education, it's over-rated. That's why I bought in tustin. I don't concern myself with API scores. My kid is either going to be smart or she's not, going to an irvine school wouldn't make a difference in her achievement

That's not true...there are lots of jobs in which the primary goals are not make make money. 

Teachers, academics, people who work for causes, political groups/workers, NGOs, charities, religious institutions....etc. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

Really...cause the last financial crisis came as a result of having too many lawyers right? 

 

[qwerty]

I was giving u my opinion.

 

[qwerty]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

Really...cause the last financial crisis came as a result of having too many lawyers right? 

Not sure why you are even making a connection. The crisis has nothing to do with my opinion that there are too many lawyers

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I was giving u my opinion.

So was I.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

Really...cause the last financial crisis came as a result of having too many lawyers right? 

Not sure why you are even making a connection. The crisis has nothing to do with my opinion that there are too many lawyers

Fair enough...why do you think there are too many lawyers?

 

[bones]

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[Irvinecommuter]

I know what lawyers do.there are too many of you is the problem.

Really...cause the last financial crisis came as a result of having too many lawyers right? 

Not sure why you are even making a connection. The crisis has nothing to do with my opinion that there are too many lawyers

Fair enough...why do you think there are too many lawyers?

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but there's been a whole lot written up lately about there being too many lawyers, bad law schools, job shortages, etc, etc.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinion/sunday/an-existential-crisis-for-law-schools.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...roblem_with_law_schools_too_many_lawyers.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...-01/hastings-law-school-admissions/54662710/1

There are definitely too many people who want to be lawyers... in large part because the qualifications are too easy.  You don't need met any specific course requirements and law schools are everywhere. 

I should clarify that there are too many people who pass the bar...not enough lawyers/attorneys.

 

[bones]

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