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Failedagent_IHB

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Had a great Thanksgiving dinner with my family in Santa Barbara, best food I ever had. My father, 76 years old has lost half of his pension fund. My brother, the real estate developer, is going bankrupt after having finally accumulated 2 million in "equity". My 64 year old retired mother in law saw her 401K go from $700K to $200K. My sister was going to retire next year, but with the market where it is, she is at least another five years away. My sister in law with the four year old got her layoff notice. Yes, I know about not keeping your retirement money in the market or longer term bonds, but with people living well into their 90's what else were they going to do with much of their money?
 
Perhaps this should become the thread where we list the casualties of the Easy Credit Calamity of the 21st Century.



I'll re-post what I put on another thread:



My cousin's dad died after a long fight with cancer the end of August, so he missed her wedding in October. She got laid off from her job of 10 years or so at Allied Capitol in NYC a couple of weeks ago.



(PS: Sorry FailedAgent for all that bad news.)
 
[quote author="Failedagent" date=1228227079]Had a great Thanksgiving dinner with my family in Santa Barbara, best food I ever had. My father, 76 years old has lost half of his pension fund. My brother, the real estate developer, is going bankrupt after having finally accumulated 2 million in "equity". My 64 year old retired mother in law saw her 401K go from $700K to $200K. My sister was going to retire next year, but with the market where it is, she is at least another five years away. My sister in law with the four year old got her layoff notice. Yes, I know about not keeping your retirement money in the market or longer term bonds, <strong>but with people living well into their 90's what else were they going to do with much of their money</strong>?</blockquote>


No offense...but...



How is your mother 64 past retirement age and lost about 70% on her 401K which is far greater what even the S&P and DOW have lost. Perhaps she decided it was vegas time and took some major risks??? Perhaps she invested all her money in financials? What happened to the notion of where we invest into lower risk securities as we get closer to retirement let alone at retirement which is where your mother is at. The bolded thatement...not sure what you are suggesting. Are you saying people living well into their 90's have too much money so they have to do something with it? SO its ok to invest it recklessly?



I also don't feel sorry for your brother either...perhaps you should blame your brother for helping drive the real-estate bubble that caused your mothers 401K to crash, or perhaps we should all blame people like your brother for causing this mess. I don't feel sorry for your family in the same way as I don't feel sorry for people that took a million dollar loan in Riverside on a home worth now 200K.



Guess what...if you take risks expect the pain with it. But how your mother lost 70% in her 401K is beyond baffling perhaps a miracle...or you are full of shit.



Sorry to be an asshole, but at times I get tired of people crying about how much they lost when it was a loss generated by their own actions and could have been preventable to an extent.



People losing jobs and not being able to afford health-care...People that got trampled at Wal-Mart in the name of greed are ones I feel sorry for.
 
I hate to pile on but during times like this it never ceases to a maze how people love to compete to see who is more miserable. People love to exaggerate both fortune and failure. I will listen to some shmo tell me he lost $100,000 grand in the market but when I break out his statement he seems to have included an $80,000 withdrawal to buy a car in that loss...opps only down $20,000. Wow, what at differance reality makes. Not to diminish the actual pain out there but I find many time it is less than you are told...that' just my opinion...I could be wrong.
 
I have not asked my mother in law how she managed to lose $500K out of a $700K nest egg. Right now, she won't talk to anybody, she is in shock. My sister in law says she just sits in front of the TV and refuses to talk to anybody, and my sister in law also confirms that the $500K evaporated. All I know is that she gave her 401K account to the Wells Fargo 401K financial advisors. Unfortunately that is the extent of my mother in law's financial education, give your money to an "expert". When she grew up in Iowa, men were supposed to handle the money and women took care of the house and kids.



My brother the real estate developer, was just on his last deal with a shopping center in Wisconsin. He had AAA tenants sign for leases, but they are backing out with an army of attorneys. He is losing $50,000K per month. He will be bankrupt long before he can get an attorney to collect on the leases. This is the number one problem when you do business with the big corporations, you can't collect because of the legal costs involved....and they know it. This is why I have shied away from leasing our commercial real estate to big names. It's better to deal with local businesses, and you get a slightly higher rate.



You can ALWAYS say that peopel were foolish with this investment, or that investment. I think it is worthy enough that people simply tried to invest at all. We aren't talking about a lot of spendthrifts here. These people did the best they knew to save for the future, and they weren't gambling their money in get rich quick schemes.



By the way, commercial real estate never saw the crazy loan shemes that residential real estate used. It was always 25-35 percent down, and 5-20 year loans based on 30 year amortization schedules. What was crazy (in retrospect) was that people were willing to buy at 4.5% cap rates. It costs about 4.5% just to operate a commercial building, yielding zero cash flow and totally dependent on asset appreciation to make any sense.
 
[quote author="morekaos" date=1228262287]I hate to pile on but during times like this it never ceases to a maze how people love to compete to see who is more miserable. People love to exaggerate both fortune and failure. I will listen to some shmo tell me he lost $100,000 grand in the market but when I break out his statement he seems to have included an $80,000 withdrawal to buy a car in that loss...opps only down $20,000. Wow, what at differance reality makes. Not to diminish the actual pain out there but I find many time it is less than you are told...that' just my opinion...I could be wrong.</blockquote>


I'm a happy man. I am making my $47 per day in CDs and money market accounts, have had my 401k and IRAs in mostly cash for almost a year now, and am happily hunkered down in a nice rental.



If I wouldn't have been responsible and taken action with my net worth, I could be adding more to the pity party, but people have free will and make their choices. If you got the bucks, it's a responsibility to get educated on how to manage it (or at least select a good manager and periodically review their performance) over time. If people put just a fraction of the thought into money management that they do into the clothes they buy, the trips they take, etc. those kinds of huge losses would be mostly avoided.
 
IOP;



You have only won ONE small round in the investment sweepstakes. Who is to say that Charles Keating ( or Mr. Hyperinflation) will not figure out how to steal your "insured" CD's? How secure will you feel then? Let's see how smart we all are when we retire. I have been fairly conservative in my 51 years. If I was actually SMART instead of conservative, I would have had a ride on the stock market bubble of 2000 and the real estate bubble of 2007. Or maybe rolled the dice in the gold bubble we are in now. It is the age old question"if you are so smart, why aren't you rich?"



If you are think you are the big winner because you retire rich and early, then just hope your health holds out to enjoy it....yes LIFE really is beyond our control.
 
I'm curiuos Failedagent...since your mother lost 71% of her 401K which one of these mutual funds through Wells Fargo did she lose it on? Considering the top losing fund is down -53.8% YTD.



(3rd row of numbers represents 1yr returns)



Symbol Name ..................................................1mth YTD 1yr 3yr 5yr 10yr

WFCAX Wells Fargo Advantage Asia Pacific C -23.2% -53.8% -57.7% -- -- --

SASPX Wells Fargo Advantage Asia Pacific Inv -23.2% -53.5% -57.4% -5.8% 3.3% 7.6%

WFAAX Wells Fargo Advantage Asia Pacific A -23.2% -53.5% -57.3% -- -- --

MFFCX Wells Fargo Advantage Emerg Mkt Eq C -26.1% -52.9% -56.6% -3.2% 3.6% --

MFFBX Wells Fargo Advantage Emerg Mkt Eq B -26.0% -52.9% -56.6% -3.2% 3.6% --



If it wasnt a Wells Fargo mutual fund like you said it was, then there are 20 or so funds that exceed a 71% loss. However most of them are ULTRA/2X funds. I doubt any professional at Wells Fargo moved your mothers money into an ULTRA fund without her insisting on it. See below the list of funds exceding 71% (this is all of them in existance over 20K mutual funds screened)



WCPSX Profunds UltraSector Mobile Telecomm Svc -52.7% -82.5% -87.2% -50.6% -24.5% --

RIBCX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Int Bd C -16.1% -82.9% -87.1% -55.0% -36.6% --

MKIBX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Int Bd A -16.1% -82.8% -87.1% -54.8% -36.3% --

RIBIX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Int Bd I -16.0% -82.8% -87.0% -54.7% -36.1% --

WCPIX Profunds UltraSector Mobile Telecomm Inv -52.5% -82.3% -87.0% -50.0% -23.7% --

UBPSX ProFunds UltraLatin America Svc -63.9% -83.5% -85.4% -- -- --

DXELX Direxion Emerging Markets Bull 2.0X Inv -54.8% -81.7% -85.3% -- -- --

UBPIX ProFunds UltraLatin America Inv -63.8% -83.4% -85.3% -- -- --

DXZLX Direxion Latin America Bull 2X Inv -64.4% -82.8% -85.2% -- -- --

UUPSX ProFunds UltraEmerging Markets Svc -54.7% -81.3% -85.0% -- -- --

UUPIX ProFunds UltraEmerging Markets Inv -54.7% -81.1% -84.8% -- -- --

RHICX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Hi Inc C -15.9% -74.2% -81.1% -51.2% -31.9% --

MKHIX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Hi Inc A -15.9% -73.9% -81.0% -50.9% -31.5% --

RHIIX Regions Morgan Keegan Select Hi Inc I -15.8% -73.6% -80.7% -50.6% -31.2% --

DXQLX Direxion NASDAQ-100 Bull 2.5X Inv -41.5% -75.5% -80.3% -- -- --

DXJLX Direxion Japan Bull 2X Inv -47.3% -71.5% -77.3% -- -- --

UJPSX ProFunds UltraJapan Svc -46.2% -71.0% -77.1% -30.8% -12.8% --

PMPSX ProFunds Precious Metals UltraSector Svc -55.7% -73.2% -77.0% -23.5% -14.6% --

UJPIX ProFunds UltraJapan Inv -46.2% -70.8% -76.8% -30.1% -12.0% --

PMPIX ProFunds Precious Metals UltraSector Inv -55.7% -72.9% -76.8% -22.8% -13.8% --

UNPSX ProFunds Ultra International Svc -43.1% -73.1% -76.6% -- -- --

DXDLX Direxion Developed Mkts Bull 2.0X Inv -43.4% -72.3% -76.3% -- -- --

UNPIX ProFunds Ultra International Inv -43.0% -72.9% -76.3% -- -- --

DXCLX Direxion Commodity Bull 2X Inv -58.3% -76.6% -76.0% -21.4% -- --

DXMLX Direxion Mid Cap Bull 2.5X Inv -51.4% -71.1% -75.7% -- -- --

DXSLX Direxion S&P 500 Bull 2.5X Inv -43.4% -71.5% -75.6% -- -- --

MIDSX Midas -46.2% -71.0% -74.2% -11.7% -4.2% 0.1%

DXRLX Direxion Small Cap Bull 2.5X Inv -50.7% -67.5% -74.0% -32.1% -17.6% --





So based on some basic research I have concluded that you are a lying piece of really solid....
 
I wouldn't be so hard on FailedAgent, I've heard many horror stories about the elderly having their retirement accounts being churned and burned by brokers. Usually 401Ks are self-directed with just a few choices (mine only gives me five choices, riskfree, bond, S&P, small cap and international with some lifecycle funds) with the worst performing probably being small cap or international, but some 401Ks have company stock as one of the options so some 401Ks can blow up worse than the indexes, and some people still have a lot riding on company stock in the 401Ks even post-Enron. A lot of the horror stories involving inappropriate investments for older investors happened over 10 years ago but I'm sure there are still brokers making their clients worse off than the worst indexes.
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1228308371]I'm curiuos Failedagent...since your mother lost 71% of her 401K which one of these mutual funds through Wells Fargo did she lose it on? Considering the top losing fund is down -53.8% YTD.



...



So based on some basic research I have concluded that you are a lying piece of really solid....</blockquote>


I think you are making the assumption that the investment adviser stays in the same fund the entire YTD and not try to time the market. If he / she moved in and out of those funds and timed the market wrong, given the market volatility it would not surprise me to see a 70% loss.
 
[quote author="Failedagent" date=1228306979]IOP;



You have only won ONE small round in the investment sweepstakes. Who is to say that Charles Keating ( or Mr. Hyperinflation) will not figure out how to steal your "insured" CD's? How secure will you feel then? Let's see how smart we all are when we retire. I have been fairly conservative in my 51 years. If I was actually SMART instead of conservative, I would have had a ride on the stock market bubble of 2000 and the real estate bubble of 2007. Or maybe rolled the dice in the gold bubble we are in now. It is the age old question"if you are so smart, why aren't you rich?"



If you are think you are the big winner because you retire rich and early, then just hope your health holds out to enjoy it....yes LIFE really is beyond our control.</blockquote>


I'm not that smart or that rich, but I managed to ride the tech stock bubble long enough to produce the equity to buy a home in 2001 and then ride the RE bubble with a chunk of my IPO proceeds. Many Average Joe's like myself did the same... We eek out our meager middle class (at least in OC) earnings, save for retirement and our kids college, and pay attention to our investments. I don't have much sympathy for those that take a totally passive role with their nest eggs.



If my insured CDs disappear, then our government and entire economy will have collapsed. I'm not really going to worry about or try to plan for such a contingency.
 
I have said this in at least one other thread: It is important to try to be involved in your parents financial situation as they get older. The subject may be taboo, and they may be reluctant to discuss that info with you, because they have lived, saved, invested, and just know more than you will ever know about anything. But, there is a high likelihood that one day you will be controlling their finances at some point, or at least another family member will. Just because their broker or advisor works for a big firm, doesn't mean they are not a dumb a$$. Trust me, you will be so much happier being able to move them into the full time care home with plenty of staff in Irvine, rather than the home you see advertised off the 5 freeway in Santa Ana with 1/4th the staff because that is what you can afford with what they left you with. Had you stepped up and had the conversation that you were concerned about the housing and stock market in 2006, then in 2007 they might have taken you more seriously, and by early 2008 they would have been asking what you thought about the continuing unemployment insurance claims chart on Calculated Risk. Don't believe me? Just try to be more involved, and try to show them the light. You might be surprised how seriously they will take you once you have proven to them you know what you are talking about. If they don't come around, then it sucks for you, because you could be burdened with their debts if something should happen to them. If you have other family members who haven't made some of the best financial decisions, then you could be the one entirely responsible for your parents debt.



Now, here is why I find the 70% loss hard to believe.



1. Having some knowledge of the securities industry, I know that most large firms make a potential client fill out a risk tolerance level form. I would think Wells Fargo has such a form, and it would be required to be in their file. One of the questions asked is age, or how close to retirement you are. Depending on the age, this question alone would bump someone up from a high risk tolerance to low risk tolerance. That would put someone in funds that would be impossible to be down 70%. In fact, my mom received a letter from a large firm like Wells, that because of her now older age bumped her into a lower risk category for her current investments.



2. There is a difference between a broker and an advisor. A broker can churn and burn someone for commissions, but an advisor gets paid a fee for assets under management. An advisor at Wells Fargo was mentioned, making me believe he/she would have no incentive to be trading just to earn a commission, because the advisor can trade all he/she wants with zero commissions made, but if the assets drop 70% then they get paid 70% less.



So if they are a broker who is moving money from fund to fund just to earn a commission, then it is hard to believe they could be down 70%, unless they are putting them into funds that are 2X up or down at the worst time. If they are an advisor, then they must have been putting them into Lehman, Bear Stearns, subprime or ALT-A mortgage securities, or they listen to Cramer and put them in Crocs. I mean, they could have taken all of the crazy investment ideas from Panda here, and they wouldn't be down 70%. Being down 70% is really hard to do, even in this market.



I just find it hard to believe that someone who is older could be down 70% from a firm like Wells, when probably most at Wells are down about 20%-30% as a worst case scenario when point #1 is taken into effect. Either the 70% is an exaggeration, or someone is doing something in which an attorney should be involved with finding out why risk tolerance levels have potentially been violated.



If you don't take the time to educate yourself on what you are investing in, or get educated on what your parents are investing in, then you will have no one to blame but yourself when those investments go bad.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1228326557]I have said this in at least one other thread: It is important to try to be involved in your parents financial situation as they get older. The subject may be taboo, and they may be reluctant to discuss that info with you, because they have lived, saved, invested, and just know more than you will ever know about anything. But, there is a high likelihood that one day you will be controlling their finances at some point, or at least another family member will. Just because their broker or advisor works for a big firm, doesn't mean they are not a dumb a$$. Trust me, you will be so much happier being able to move them into the full time care home with plenty of staff in Irvine, rather than the home you see advertised off the 5 freeway in Santa Ana with 1/4th the staff because that is what you can afford with what they left you with. Had you stepped up and had the conversation that you were concerned about the housing and stock market in 2006, then in 2007 they might have taken you more seriously, and by early 2008 they would have been asking what you thought about the continuing unemployment insurance claims chart on Calculated Risk. Don't believe me? Just try to be more involved, and try to show them the light. You might be surprised how seriously they will take you once you have proven to them you know what you are talking about. If they don't come around, then it sucks for you, because you could be burdened with their debts if something should happen to them. If you have other family members who haven't made some of the best financial decisions, then you could be the one entirely responsible for your parents debt.



If you don't take the time to educate yourself on what you are investing in, or get educated on what your parents are investing in, then you will have no one to blame but yourself when those investments go bad.</blockquote>


I just want to add a personal note to this wise advice. I just got back from a trip to the midwest for Turkey Day with Mom (age 83). Years ago, after my Dad passed away, her investments were in the care of a local agent for a regional brokerage firm. She sent statements to me and asked my opinion, but I was not involved directly. But after about six months, I thought there was some churning going on, and got more involved. The big red flag was a new investment in a mutual fund with an 8.25% front-end fee and marginal historical performance. Over the next year or two, I helped her re-direct her money to secure savings appropriate for her age. The good news is that Mom has lost NOTHING in this downturn and feels secure enough to help her grandkids with financial assistance for college.



Take the time during the holidays to have a heart-to-heart talk with your elderly parents. If they don't want to have the discussion, then at least you can say you tried.
 
she probably had a lot of money in her company's stock would be my guess. I know people who put 50% to 100% of their 401k in their companies stock. You can lose all of your 401k.



secondly, given those YTD numbers you've shown me, it is entirely possible for her 401k to be down that much. what's with the witch hunt?
 
[quote author="Failedagent" date=1228363203]WTF? What incentive do I have to lie about my mother in law's bad news? Sometimes you guys need to do a reality check!</blockquote>


None. I apologize. You are right, we should condemn wall st., corporations and our government for robbing us blind. How dare they do that to us...
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1228364323][quote author="Failedagent" date=1228363203]WTF? What incentive do I have to lie about my mother in law's bad news? Sometimes you guys need to do a reality check!</blockquote>


None. I apologize. You are right, we should condemn wall st., corporations and our government for robbing us blind. How dare they do that to us...</blockquote>


They have robbed us blind, dude(t). What country are you living in??
 
[quote author="lendingmaestro" date=1228364231]she probably had a lot of money in her company's stock would be my guess. I know people who put 50% to 100% of their 401k in their companies stock. You can lose all of your 401k.</blockquote>


Ok so be it. But I guess I just don't get why I should feel sorry for something like that. Just what Graph said if you have that much money sitting around, it is your responsibility to educate yourself to take care of it. Nobody is asking her to be a wall st. expert, but I don't see why its hard for people to go out and educate themselves on the basics. My wife hates the stock-market. She doesn't even want me to talk about it around her as it doesn't interest her. But she damn knows the basics enough to know someone isn't taking advantage of her.



You need to invest time and understand the following concept and that is to follow your money.



You get a paycheck and money gets taken out and placed in the 401K. Check. Do you not wonder where in the 401K that goes and what happens to it? If you do, then you will take the next step and find out. Once you see that it is going to fund A, B or C...you will notice that it changed in value up/down. If you don't like that you money went down, wouldn't you want to find out more as to why and how you can protect it? I mean for crying outloud people if your checking has a debit of -1000 that you are not aware of...wouldn't you inquire about it? Baffling...



Are people that irresponsible? I'm starting to think people just get money taken out of their paycheck...it goes to a 401K, and I bet they don't even know the institution that holds their money, or their account or password to track it. I bet they don't even know what they have...If this is you. You don't even deserve a -70% loss. You deserve -100% loss.
 
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