More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades

[Kangen.Irvine]

Per pupil spending took a dive in 2008 and schools are slow to recover. I?m definitely not against giving families options and making public schools compete for students, but the funding must be equal for each student.

2017-18 LCFF as stated by CA
IUSD: $8,260/student
TUSD: $8,548
SVUSD: $8,468
SAUSD: $10,653
OUSD: $8,774
CUSD: $8,293

NMUSD and LBUSD are funded by property taxes.

If anything, the data do suggest the inequity and Irvine students should receive the same funding. Just like taxation though, who pays isn?t who benefits.

 

[eyephone]

Anybody on TI has the right to reply to any posts. Thanks for copying and pasting my posts. I just reviewed my posts and I didn?t say anything wrong. Btw - many people liked my posts.

In regards to my spelling. I am on my phone majority of the time. (Many people make mistakes. Not a big deal. As you can tell I don?t use spell check)

Since you brought up the previous conversation about Mimi. Are you going to volunteer for her? 

You have great ideas. Have you consider volunteering for Mimi?

I would in a second.  I love her.

So what?s your solution?

A reasonable person would not have had to ask such a question.  Your reason for doing so was only to continue to stalk and harass me, as a quick review of your most recent posts reveals:

YOUR recent posts, eyephone, are these, by number:

1.
/ Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
? on: Today at 11:31:59 AM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on Today at 11:15:54 AM
///
Is that your solution? To talk about gore (sic) and Clinton.



2.  Education / Re: More Money Has Bought Dumber Students For Decades
? on: Today at 10:14:00 AM ?
So what?s your solution?

5.  My thread on 

Water Cooler / Re: The Revolting Democrats Just Keep On Revolting
? on: Yesterday at 09:37:26 AM ?
Quote from: freedomcm on Yesterday at 07:04:49 AM
Why does the right continue to focus on Hillary, who is no longer relevant, now that trump is in office?

It?s like blaming the company troubles for an employee that left the company a while ago.

You didn?t meet the company?s sales budget last year because of the person who left. Then the reason why you are not meeting the current sales budget because of the person who left.

Stop making excuses.

7
City Hall / Re: Mimi Walters - CA45 Rep missing in action?
? on: April 26, 2018, 06:58:35 PM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on April 26, 2018, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: eyephone on April 26, 2018, 03:46:03 PM


You have great ideas. Have you consider volunteering for Mimi?

I would in a second.  I love her.

You would. But what?s stopping you?

8
City Hall / Re: Mimi Walters - CA45 Rep missing in action?
? on: April 26, 2018, 03:46:03 PM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on April 26, 2018, 03:44:51 PMhttp://i.magaimg.net/img/2ka4.png

$40 from the Magnificent Obama, splendid.  Spectacular.  - Nancy Pelosi 2011

$1,000 from Trump. Crumbs. Pathetic. Insignificant. - Nancy Pelosi 2018

You have great ideas. Have you consider volunteering for Mimi?


9
City Hall / Re: Building in Irvine: Too Fast and I?m Furious
? on: April 26, 2018, 03:35:02 PM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on April 26, 2018, 02:58:30 PM
How exhausting it is for NIMBYs and Leftists to always be offended, and driving  off to protests and council meetings to vent their spleens.....

How about the alt R? They don?t gather with torches or protest?


11
Water Cooler / Re: President Trump
? on: April 25, 2018, 08:21:21 PM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on April 25, 2018, 08:05:39 PM
Quote from: Kings on April 25, 2018, 04:10:47 PM
where's my popcorn?


Obama was in office for eight years and nothing in Chicago changed.

Poor people have been voting Democrat for fifty years and they're still poor.  - Sir Charles Barkeley, black NBA superstar

And your (sic) not?



14
City Hall / Re: Mass Transit
? on: April 25, 2018, 01:43:24 PM ?
Quote from: StarmanMBA on April 25, 2018, 01:38:27 PM
Quote from: acpme on April 25, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
Amazingly I'm with Star on this one. Mass transit is not the solution. It's a last gen solution and not a next gen one. Also, mass transit works best in major cities centered around a downtown core.

Yes indeed, using common sense and good judgment is "amazing," isn't it.

So do the following cities: Austin, OKC, Durham have bad judgement (sic)  since they are going to have a light rail or already have one? (GOP stronghold)
I?m sure there?s more ....

----------------------------

Learn the difference between "you're" and "your."  It's sixth grade level English.  Try to master it.    "gore" (sic) is the last name of former Vice President Al Gore. It is a proper name and should be capitalized.  Again, sixth grade level English. 
Even AFTER I showed you how to spell "judgment," you immediately misspelled it in Item #14.  Rather than express an iota of embarrassment at your ongoing  ignorance, I'm sure you will try attacking me again.  It won't work. 

You stalk and harass like a sixth grade bully.  Grow up and act civilly, if you can. It worked when you were a child, and of course it still works on adults who may be vulnerable or insecure.  It won't work on me.  Got it?

 

[nosuchreality]

You can always look at it the other way.

How many children do you want in your kid's class?
How much are you willing to pay to have a good teacher for your kids class?
How dilapidated do you want your school to be?
How much do you want your class spending on technology?

As for charters, i'd hope they'd succeed, Ichan 1 is rivaling Harvard for admission rates.

 

[StarmanMBA]

You can always look at it the other way.

How many children do you want in your kid's class?
How much are you willing to pay to have a good teacher for your kids class?
How dilapidated do you want your school to be?
How much do you want your class spending on technology?

As for charters, i'd hope they'd succeed, Ichan 1 is rivaling Harvard for admission rates.

1.  Show me studies for educational performance versus class size. 
I could personally educate fifty kids in a class and do a better job than the educrats who have been screwing things up for decades.

2.  The CORRELATION between spending and educational performance is worse than 0.
It is negative.  The more money we give to them, the worse job they do.

3.  Take a picture of the most "dilapidated" classroom in Irvine and post it here.

4.  All of us reading this were educated WITHOUT "technology."  We read books and wrote with pencil and paper.  Try it some time.  The Kansas Experiment conclusively proved that money is ineffective.  They spent a billion dollars and achieved nothing.

 

[nosuchreality]

You can always look at it the other way.

How many children do you want in your kid's class?
How much are you willing to pay to have a good teacher for your kids class?
How dilapidated do you want your school to be?
How much do you want your class spending on technology?

As for charters, i'd hope they'd succeed, Ichan 1 is rivaling Harvard for admission rates.

1.  Show me studies for educational performance versus class size. 
I could personally educate fifty kids in a class and do a better job than the educrats who have been screwing things up for decades.

2.  The CORRELATION between spending and educational performance is worse than 0.
It is negative.  The more money we give to them, the worse job they do.

3.  Take a picture of the most "dilapidated" classroom in Irvine and post it here.

4.  All of us reading this were educated WITHOUT "technology."  We read books and wrote with pencil and paper.  Try it some time.  The Kansas Experiment conclusively proved that money is ineffective.  They spent a billion dollars and achieved nothing.

Nice dodge, how much do you want to pay an effective teacher for your kids?

 

[Bullsback]

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...hile-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

$50K is poverty in Irvine

He's still in training while earning $50k/year.  The bright kids attending private colleges are paying $50k/year, so after 4 years they are $400,000 behind the ironworker.  Plus he will retire sooner with a pension and they won't.

It would be interesting to see an economist determine how many years, on average, after graduation to break even with the iron worker.

I worked while in college and graduated with $200k in the bank with no student debt.

Very few students pay for college with 100% student debt. Those that do are foolish as you say.

Pure curiosity, and you don't need to share, how did you possibly earn $200K working through college?  What job were you working that paid that much, net of tuition/housing costs. I'm presuming you had no housing costs (and were living at home)? 

 

[Liar Loan]

You can always look at it the other way.

How many children do you want in your kid's class?
How much are you willing to pay to have a good teacher for your kids class?
How dilapidated do you want your school to be?
How much do you want your class spending on technology?

As for charters, i'd hope they'd succeed, Ichan 1 is rivaling Harvard for admission rates.

1.  Show me studies for educational performance versus class size. 
I could personally educate fifty kids in a class and do a better job than the educrats who have been screwing things up for decades.

2.  The CORRELATION between spending and educational performance is worse than 0.
It is negative.  The more money we give to them, the worse job they do.

3.  Take a picture of the most "dilapidated" classroom in Irvine and post it here.

4.  All of us reading this were educated WITHOUT "technology."  We read books and wrote with pencil and paper.  Try it some time.  The Kansas Experiment conclusively proved that money is ineffective.  They spent a billion dollars and achieved nothing.

Nice dodge, how much do you want to pay an effective teacher for your kids?

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

 

[Burn That Belly]

x

 

[freedomcm]

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

 

[Liar Loan]

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

 

[nosuchreality]

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule. https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.  Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.  However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive. 

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/upload..._Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

 

[sgip]

More teacher pay does not equal better educated students. Having just graduated 2 HS out of the SVUSD, there are plenty of highly compensated teachers who are well past their "sell by" date. Example: One HS teacher refused to post grades on the schools computer network because he could not understand how to use the system.  I've found in him the poster child for item 1 of 4 to fix the system:

1) Eliminate tenure. Dead wood clearing is the most effective pathway to freeing up more $$$ for education. Sweet jeepers there's a huge amount of it to clear.

2) Raise Teacher Standards. IMHO raise them so high that you draw talent from private industry and deter those with flimsy "teaching degrees" colleges have churned out.

3) Pay those who exceed those standards accordingly.

4) Fire students. Yes, if Johnny can't sit still in class, he should be booted from it. If you want higher parental involvement, send their kid home for a few days for shiatty behavior. That will get parents motivated to ensure little Johnny gets with the program.

It's tough love time. Not many people like it, but for the small amount of pain today offset by the larger gains of tomorrow, it's well worth it IMHO.

My .02c

 

[Ready2Downsize]

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule. https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.  Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.  However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive. 

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/upload..._Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

My daughter works at a charter school in AZ (because of tenture she knew she couldn't get a job here when she graduated at the peak of the bad economy knowing anyone laid off would be first to be rehired and she didn't want to face being a sub for years). AZ is one of the worst paying states (teachers were just in the news for striking). I don't know if this is true at all AZ schools but at hers (and the schools she has worked at before this one which is a total of two others) the teachers are paid based on academic performance of the kids which is based on class test scores. The kids are tested three times a year. Every year she tells me I hope to get the worst underperforming kids I can possibly get in the fall because it's the best chance for my pay to go up. At first she had no problem because the new teachers always get the worst of the worst but there were so many parents requesting her, she ended up getting the best of the best. Still she managed to always hit the goals for max pay raise (not all teachers do). In fact she usually tells me by the second test she got the the best pay raise in the bag already.

It's not really the best system because the teachers have learned to teach for the test. If it's not on the test, the kids will not be taught that subject matter until MAYBE after the third test.

 

[Kings]

Currently, public school teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than private school teachers do.  Let's start by paying them market rate for their services and then go from there.

Based on the difficulty filling STEM and special ed teaching roles by the schools, as evidenced by the continuing unfilled openings, it seems to me that the market rate is insufficient to attract quality candidates.

Are you in favor of increasing pay for these teachers?

Specialized skills should be rewarded accordingly.

Unfortunately, the compensation model for our  teachers is strictly assembly line cog.

Here's IUSD's 2017/2018 salary schedule. https://iusd.org/sites/default/files/1718-certsal_board_approved_12-12-17.pdf

Compensation is purely years of service with additional credit hours of education.  Also, it's for 186 work days.  basically 37 weeks and a day not including holidays.

I see it in my school K-5 teachers making over $100K before benefits and pension contributions.  I also see the newbie hire teacher making step 1 salary.  The other thing you see when you look is the half the people supporting your kids in school are 2nd class citizens, the aides, the duties, making far far less than the teachers.

I'm not oppose to good teachers making $100K.  However, like many government agencies the hiring practice and payment practices are counter productive. 

Is the roadblock to hiring the pay or the enforced hierarchy culture?

Tustin also has their salary schedule up.  It's a little more clear that the intended path is diagonally thru the chart.https://www.tustin.k12.ca.us/upload..._Cert_Salary/Certificated_Teacher_2017-18.pdf

My daughter works at a charter school in AZ (because of tenture she knew she couldn't get a job here when she graduated at the peak of the bad economy knowing anyone laid off would be first to be rehired and she didn't want to face being a sub for years). AZ is one of the worst paying states (teachers were just in the news for striking). I don't know if this is true at all AZ schools but at hers (and the schools she has worked at before this one which is a total of two others) the teachers are paid based on academic performance of the kids which is based on class test scores. The kids are tested three times a year. Every year she tells me I hope to get the worst underperforming kids I can possibly get in the fall because it's the best chance for my pay to go up. At first she had no problem because the new teachers always get the worst of the worst but there were so many parents requesting her, she ended up getting the best of the best. Still she managed to always hit the goals for max pay raise (not all teachers do). In fact she usually tells me by the second test she got the the best pay raise in the bag already.

It's not really the best system because the teachers have learned to teach for the test. If it's not on the test, the kids will not be taught that subject matter until MAYBE after the third test.

that's one of the problems with the system today.  we're teaching kids to be test takers and how to memorize things, and not teaching them to be critical thinkers.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me.

#starmanstyle

 

[Liar Loan]

He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me.

#starmanstyle

I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

 

[momopi]

Personally, I have some issues with the lengthy classroom time and academics at expense of life skills.

I think boys are born with instinct to run, jump, touch, explore, fight/compete, etc. as natural learning.  Keeping them locked up in classrooms bound to a desk for excessive lengths of time is unhealthy.  They also need to learn how to deal with losing as most people can be gracious winners but not good losers.

I'd like to see more rural/field programs where kids are taught to swim, fish, shoot (bow/air rifle not firearms), camping/woodcraft, gardening, care for small animals (chicken/rabbit coops at school?) from younger age.  Basics of dissimilar foreign language can also be taught by age 10.  As they get older they should be taught how to patch a tire, do/fold laundry properly, cook, care for larger animals, balance checkbook, turn off water/gas mains at the house, basics of investing, basics of car care, and so on.

It's disturbing to find kids who think fish are naturally shaped like McDonalds fish sandwich patties, or can't eat fish with bones.  Kids need to be taught that animals have eyes, nose, mouth like us, McDonalds chicken nuggets aren't natural and steaks aren't raised at supermarkets.  If you can't handle the thought of raising cattle for meat then you can choose to eat less animal products or go vegetarian.

Hopefully the kids can also be taught to manage their money carefully, start saving early, purchase for longevity/durability, and take good care of their purchases so when they are no longer needed, they can be given or sold to someone else who can make better use of it.  It's preferable to disposable consumer products sent to the recycle bin.

By secondary school kids should be taught that academia is not the only path.  Trade school options, apprenticeships, job skill training can be offered.  Lastly, the kids should be taught to vote with their feet.  If they're not happy living/working in a certain environment, teach them that the world is a big place and they should go find their own niche, even if it means going to the metropolis of Paris or rural village in East Malaysia.

 

[Liar Loan]

He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me.

#starmanstyle

Wait... Why did you hashtag it #starmanstyle if BTB made the joke?  Now I'm confused.

P.S. Does anybody remember the movie Starman with Jeff Bridges?  It's a great movie.  They also made a TV spinoff not starring Jeff Bridges, but I remember it being pretty good by 80's TV standards.

 

[Burn That Belly]

He was moonlighting at Thunder Down Under.

Wait... I made a similar joke earlier and Liar Loan didn't thank me.

#starmanstyle

Wait... Why did you hashtag it #starmanstyle if BTB made the joke?  Now I'm confused.

P.S. Does anybody remember the movie Starman with Jeff Bridges?  It's a great movie.  They also made a TV spinoff not starring Jeff Bridges, but I remember it being pretty good by 80's TV standards.

Because starman gets pissed off when nobody gives his posts "thanks", that's what he lives for on here.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I don't think you named a specific troupe of strippers.  That's what really sold it for me. 

When you go to Vegas, you see the billboards for TDU everywhere and it made me laugh thinking of that.

Chippendales was the OG male stripper troupe... without them... there would be no Thunder... no Magic Mike.

How I even know that much is making qwerstripper cringe.

#thanklessoldschoolreferences