Heads up OC, the No on Prop 8 protests are coming to you

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[quote author="WINEX" date=1226323190][quote author="Trooper" date=1226321108]WINEX, disrupting a house of worship means walking into a service and messing with it. IN the church, INSIDE the mass, etc. It most certainly does not pertain to protests outside on the sidewalk. You can trust me on this one.



It's that pesky "1st Amendment" thingy.</blockquote>


There are all kinds of laws that regulate what is and what isn't legal during a protest. But even if a protest is within the law, the fact is that protesting churches during worship is building bad will with people who may have actually voted "No" on Proposition 8. Taking an "in-your-face" attitude isn't going to win friends and influence people. Whether or not the protests are legal is irrelevant. It's bad PR.



You can trust me on this one.</blockquote>


The irony.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226320547][quote author="Trooper" date=1226320247]ok, so pretend you are me for one moment. A Gay American. One who is a bonafide PATRIOT and thrust into this limelight of "rights vs no rights". You would simply give up ? Seriously ? I'm not kidding. Put yourself in my shoes and tell me you wouldn't fight for all you are worth to obtain it. I think you would, because you sound as passionate as I am on the issue. Have you ever considered my side...and if you were me ?



Seriously. I tried to sign up to serve in the military after 9/11, but was told I was too old. I WANTED TO DEFEND THIS COUNTRY....we are similar in some ways you know....</blockquote>


Honestly Trooper, I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with you. Either in public, or via IM. But I think that your emotions are too raw right now. If that weren't the case, you couldn't honestly say that protesting churches on a day of worship doesn't interfere with the free exercise of religion guaranteed by our Constitution. As I said before, you can't brow beat people into accepting you. You are hurting your cause right now, not helping it.</blockquote>


I wonder how many people throughout history who have fought for just causes have been accused of "hurting their cause, not helping it". I'm sure it's too many to number. Too many people just don't understand how hard fought our rights have been. This is nothing compared to what was lost by so many people on the long road to justice and equality. I'm sure that Troop is willing to suffer much more than this. Suggesting that the people fighting for equality in this situation is any different is just absurd when you look at it historically.
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226320547][quote author="Trooper" date=1226320247]ok, so pretend you are me for one moment. A Gay American. One who is a bonafide PATRIOT and thrust into this limelight of "rights vs no rights". You would simply give up ? Seriously ? I'm not kidding. Put yourself in my shoes and tell me you wouldn't fight for all you are worth to obtain it. I think you would, because you sound as passionate as I am on the issue. Have you ever considered my side...and if you were me ?



Seriously. I tried to sign up to serve in the military after 9/11, but was told I was too old. I WANTED TO DEFEND THIS COUNTRY....we are similar in some ways you know....</blockquote>


Honestly Trooper, I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with you. Either in public, or via IM. But I think that your emotions are too raw right now. If that weren't the case, you couldn't honestly say that protesting churches on a day of worship doesn't interfere with the free exercise of religion guaranteed by our Constitution. As I said before, you can't brow beat people into accepting you. You are hurting your cause right now, not helping it.</blockquote>


Uh, Winex, you might wish to revisit the Bill of Rights. The only entity it prohibits interfering with the free exercise of religion is the government, not individuals. For individuals, it's usually covered by something more mundane, like trespassing.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1226324356][quote author="WINEX" date=1226320547][quote author="Trooper" date=1226320247]ok, so pretend you are me for one moment. A Gay American. One who is a bonafide PATRIOT and thrust into this limelight of "rights vs no rights". You would simply give up ? Seriously ? I'm not kidding. Put yourself in my shoes and tell me you wouldn't fight for all you are worth to obtain it. I think you would, because you sound as passionate as I am on the issue. Have you ever considered my side...and if you were me ?



Seriously. I tried to sign up to serve in the military after 9/11, but was told I was too old. I WANTED TO DEFEND THIS COUNTRY....we are similar in some ways you know....</blockquote>


Honestly Trooper, I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with you. Either in public, or via IM. But I think that your emotions are too raw right now. If that weren't the case, you couldn't honestly say that protesting churches on a day of worship doesn't interfere with the free exercise of religion guaranteed by our Constitution. As I said before, you can't brow beat people into accepting you. You are hurting your cause right now, not helping it.</blockquote>


I wonder how many people throughout history who have fought for just causes have been accused of "hurting their cause, not helping it". I'm sure it's too many to number. Too many people just don't understand how hard fought our rights have been. This is nothing compared to what was lost by so many people on the long road to justice and equality. I'm sure that Troop is willing to suffer much more than this. Suggesting that the people fighting for equality in this situation is any different is just absurd when you look at it historically.</blockquote>


You know, that Rosa Parks lady really should have known her place and not made a fuss. I think it really hurt her cause. And the PR? <em>Brutal.</em>
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1226320547]If that weren't the case, you couldn't honestly say that protesting churches on a day of worship doesn't interfere with the free exercise of religion guaranteed by our Constitution.</blockquote>


As a silly point of clarification - there is no way that Trooper, in an individual capacity, could interfere with anyone's constitutional right to the free exercise of religion. The federal constitution does not limit the ability of individuals to interfere in another individual?s rights; it prevents the GOVERNMENT from interfering with such rights.



On a personal note, holding swastikas up at church members is totally tasteless and does not help anyone's cause. Honestly, I don't know what the protests hope to accomplish. If it's to change minds in Yes on Prop 8 camp, calling them bigots or intolerant or being purely punitive will not accomplish anything... dialogue, on the other hand, may.



Unless there is a serious shift of the SCOTUS justices, there is no way the court will find that homosexual marriage is a fundamental right. Hint: the justices most likely to retire in the near future are liberal - so Obama's appointments will have little to no effect on constitutional jurisprudence.
 
So when are they going to start protesting at black churches? I mean if the point of the protest is to vent against the people who are responsible, why have the marches only been against predominantly white churches? If black voters weren't 70% against gay marriage, wouldn't this have failed? Just curious.
 
Oscar...hmmmm, I'm always cautious responding to someone who only has 1 post.....



But the simple answer is: We are in dialogue with them. The faith leaders all got together yesterday at 4:00, and that included the African American community. The reason the No on 8 people are not protesting at their churches? I think I know, but not sure. It believe it has to do with safety.



The protests have been without violence so far (save a few isolated occurrences) and we'd like to keep it that way.



<em>I hate to ask this question, but shouldn?t a police officer have at least a passing familiarity with the laws of our nation?</em>



The 1st and 4th are the amendments that we deal with, and I am quite versed on them. Like I said, I don't claim to be a scholar on the issue, I'm just telling you how much this thing has hurt me and I'm grasping for any quote I can find so I can bold and italicize it....to make people think. I'll leave the legal fight up to the really smart lawyers.



I am, however, an expert on being gay.



<em>On a personal note, holding swastikas up at church members is totally tasteless and does not help anyone?s cause</em>.



Three sheets, I agree with that statement.
 
Lyrics below.



<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>



You dont know me but Im your brother

I was raised here in this living hell

You dont know my kind in your world

Fairly soon the time will tell

You, telling me the things youre gonna do for me

<strong>I aint blind and I dont like what I think I see</strong>



Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets



Take this message to my brother

You will find him everywhere

Wherever people live together

Tied in povertys despair

You, telling me the things youre gonna do for me

I aint blind and I dont like what I think I see



Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets

Takin it to the streets



-Doobie Brothers
 
Something to think about. The blond woman is supposed to be "Dr. Laura"..... the conservative radio talk show host.





<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>
 
Think by Aretha Franklin:



<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1226317501]I was just reading <a href="http://www.ocregister.com/articles/marriage-church-prop-2222946-laguna-people">this article</a> in OCR about the protest at Saddleback Church.



I must admit... I find it difficult to reconcile that people who do not like protesters at their gay pride parades or other events... would have no trouble protesting at someone else's event.... during a Sabbath day and during worship times which is a holy thing for many attendees. That just seems so tacky, and as with the protesters at gay pride parades... I do not think it helps their image one bit. (A candlelight vigil might be ok... holding up a swastika... not so much.)</blockquote>


If I was trying to get my message across to the members of a certain congregation, I would find it more useful for me to deliver that message when the congregants were at the building rather than when they were not.
 
[quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1226365061][quote author="SoCal78" date=1226317501]I was just reading <a href="http://www.ocregister.com/articles/marriage-church-prop-2222946-laguna-people">this article</a> in OCR about the protest at Saddleback Church.



I must admit... I find it difficult to reconcile that people who do not like protesters at their gay pride parades or other events... would have no trouble protesting at someone else's event.... during a Sabbath day and during worship times which is a holy thing for many attendees. That just seems so tacky, and as with the protesters at gay pride parades... I do not think it helps their image one bit. (A candlelight vigil might be ok... holding up a swastika... not so much.)</blockquote>


If I was trying to get my message across to the members of a certain congregation, I would find it more useful for me to deliver that message when the congregants were at the building rather than when they were not.</blockquote>


Does the same apply to protesters at gay pride parades?
 
Oh, SoCal...those religious anti - gay folks are at our Pride Parades each and every year, and they like to bring their children. We just ignore them. They too, have 1st Amendment Rights. (and yes, there really is such a website. My, my....lookie here....why it's a <em>church's</em> website....imagine that)



<img src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:9DHKP2oUt_vi4M:http://grannygeek.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/phelps-followers.jpg" alt="" />



<img src="http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:wVopTEd2c4bd5M:http://i27.tinypic.com/1zfk67q.jpg" alt="" />
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1226355015]Oscar...hmmmm, I'm always cautious responding to someone who only has 1 post.....



But the simple answer is: We are in dialogue with them. The faith leaders all got together yesterday at 4:00, and that included the African American community. The reason the No on 8 people are not protesting at their churches? I think I know, but not sure. It believe it has to do with safety.



The protests have been without violence so far (save a few isolated occurrences) and we'd like to keep it that way.</blockquote>
So you aren't marching on black churches because you are afraid of violence? Isn't that more than a bit racist? I would think that drawing attention to your struggle would be more important than just worrying about potential violence. I don't support any restriction on gay marriage (equal is supposed to be equal, no qualifications needed) but I'm offended at the idea that white churches are being targeted because activists are afraid of black people.
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1226370190][quote author="Trooper" date=1226355015]Oscar...hmmmm, I'm always cautious responding to someone who only has 1 post.....



But the simple answer is: We are in dialogue with them. The faith leaders all got together yesterday at 4:00, and that included the African American community. The reason the No on 8 people are not protesting at their churches? I think I know, but not sure. It believe it has to do with safety.



The protests have been without violence so far (save a few isolated occurrences) and we'd like to keep it that way.</blockquote>
So you aren't marching on black churches because you are afraid of violence? Isn't that more than a bit racist? I would think that drawing attention to your struggle would be more important than just worrying about potential violence. I don't support any restriction on gay marriage (equal is supposed to be equal, no qualifications needed) but I'm offended at the idea that white churches are being targeted because activists are afraid of black people.</blockquote>


I see your point. However, I find it difficult to blame anybody for not wanting to be in, say, Compton, ever. Let alone doing something that could stir up trouble.



Unfortunate realities are still realities.



On another note, I saw my sister yesterday. She is a tv news producer out in Palm Desert. She was telling stories about how the protests out in Palm Springs made for a stressful newscast for her. When the protest moved, she had to make the live news crew move as well. She also had to scrap the time she had set aside for the Obama economic speech/report/announcement/whatever. And then she had to put it back. And then take it out again. I never really realized how long it can take to move a news crew and set up the equipment for a live shot, and how if it's close to the hour it may technically be a part of a different newscast.
 
Cayci, I fully understand your sister's frustration b/c I've been trying to do the same thing in a way, monitor the protests. But when they go mobile, without a clear direction, and without a clear leader....who knows where they'll end up. We keep getting splinter groups marching in some other direction b/c they're not satisfied with where the rest of the group is going. Nightmare to try and police.



And for the record Oscar, at yesterday's protest at the Catholic Cathedral.....Latino attendees vastly outnumbered the whites. Like Cayci said, it's not a racist thing, it's common sense.
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1226355015]Oscar...hmmmm, I'm always cautious responding to someone who only has 1 post.....



But the simple answer is: We are in dialogue with them. The faith leaders all got together yesterday at 4:00, and that included the African American community. The reason the No on 8 people are not protesting at their churches? I think I know, but not sure. It believe it has to do with safety.



The protests have been without violence so far (save a few isolated occurrences) and we'd like to keep it that way.



<em>I hate to ask this question, but shouldn?t a police officer have at least a passing familiarity with the laws of our nation?</em>



The 1st and 4th are the amendments that we deal with, and I am quite versed on them. Like I said, I don't claim to be a scholar on the issue, I'm just telling you how much this thing has hurt me and I'm grasping for any quote I can find so I can bold and italicize it....to make people think. I'll leave the legal fight up to the really smart lawyers.



I am, however, an expert on being gay.



<em>On a personal note, holding swastikas up at church members is totally tasteless and does not help anyone?s cause</em>.



Three sheets, I agree with that statement.</blockquote>




"I am, however, an expert on being gay."



I'm on your side on this issue, but would like you to appreciate the less mature on this forum. I really lost a lot of focus reading that sentence.
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1226386038]<a href="http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/prop 8 hot guy.jpg">I can't believe we still have to protest this crap</a>



http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/prop8 hot guy.jpg</blockquote>


<a href="http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/prop 8 hot guy.jpg">Better Link</a>



Nevermind...forum software is eating the spaces.
 
<em>I?m on your side on this issue, but would like you to appreciate the less mature on this forum. I really lost a lot of focus reading that sentence.</em>



What I was trying to say is that I'm not expert on the entire Constitution, just my life. Sorry if that didn't come across right/make sense.



And thanks for your support u.l.c.



Next Prop 8 event in L.A., should anyone want to attend in support: (there are also links to the national events)



<a href="http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/?t=anon">www.jointheimpact.wetpaint.com</a>
 
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