EZ way to predict housing adjustment

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
<p>Lang,</p>

<p>I think Irvine had a trickle around effect. Bad housing, In bad neigborhoods went up in value. </p>

<p>It seems to be all of So cal. I looked at the cost of living index. Or COLI to be cool and fancy. The suggested portion of your income that should be allocated for housing is 29%. </p>

<p>LA was at 245%. San Diego was at 212%. For some reason Orange County was not listed. So in LA people are allcoating 71% of their income to housing. In San Diego 61% of the income goes to housing. I am sure OC is right in there too.</p>

<p>Now again MEdian housing prices can be skewed just like Median income by several factors but across Southern California things are just out of whack.</p>

<p>In some comunities the actual income is lower then the expenditures. LOL.</p>

<p>I thought only the government could deficit spend.</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>
 
<p>TR:</p>

<p>I agree that pricing has gotten out of control and that people are overspending/overallocating for their mortgages. The only question is how low are prices going to drop?</p>
 
<p>If you want to make a sound economic decision you should stay around 29% of your income as housing cost.</p>

<p>If you want to make a sound loan you should stay around 29% of a persons income with verification at todays rates.</p>

<p>Base it on a 30 year fixed loan and base a loan on that and it will tell you the bottom or at least what a house should be worth.</p>

<p>I will pay somewhat of a premium to live here in so cal but If I can move to another state and pay 29% of my income for a house instead of 61% then teh decesion is easy. </p>

<p>I guess we will have to let others decide that for us.</p>

<p>The only thing that has changed since this boom really kicked in was the type of loans people were getting. Before a person could get a neg am interest only loan houses were in the low 400's.</p>

<p>That of course was after everyone that could get a arm with no doc's got into the market. Before that it was about 300-350.</p>

<p>So if this type of financing can't be had anymore I would think it could go pretty low.</p>

<p>I have a long term monthly payment in mind not a total cost. That long term will be on a fixed 30 year loan. If everyone did that then the bottom would be more predictable.</p>

<p>Then again is it really to "Bottom" or is it where it should be.</p>
 
<p>I agree with LL about the ripple-effect.</p>

<p>I was always astounded that all neighborhoods were lifted by the same tide these past few years.</p>

<p>We all know the crappiest of shacks, in the seediest of places were commanding absurd prices.</p>

<p>Does everyone think that deprecation rates (adjusted for starting desirability) will be felt evenly among all places?</p>

<p>In other words: could we see, say, Newport Beach or Irvine come down X%, while Garden Grove comes down X*5%?</p>
 
<p>I would speculate that no, some areas will be hit harder than others. I'm of the opinion that people lost sight of good quality/location during the run-up and they are rediscovering it now. I do think Irvine is safer than, say, Ladera.</p>

<p>I still think Irvine's gonna get punched in the face. Just not as hard. </p>
 
LL: Thanks for the info on San Juan Capistrano. I wish I wasn't constrained by geographic location and other influences, but many factors conspired to leave me very few options besides Irvine/Tustin Ranch <my company is relocating our office to Irvine in September, my wife works in La Mirada/Buena Park so going further south is a no-no although as a pharmacist she has many job opportunities, my inlaw/babysitter lives in Garden Grove and doesn't want to move, and we desire to be within 20 minutes of Little Saigon to eat on the weekends>.





TRRenter: there was a time last year when I actually thought about getting a 50% DTI loan to buy a bigger home at the inflated prices. It's really amazing how much rationalization can go on (even among smart folks like myself) when you want something really bad. Here we were, making much more money than many people we know, and they own homes and we didn't. We felt something was wrong with us, that we didn't catch the home buying wave early enough, that somehow we were inadequate...Anyways, now I wouldn't want to go over 30% of our gross income for housing and I'll let those FBs give up their homes to the banks.





BTW, how did the 28% DTI for housing costs and 36% DTI for total indebtedness come about? Were those percentages based on empirical evidence, or calculations?
 
<p>One caveat on DTI's: the higher the income/housing, the more room there is. </p>

<p>Before I get flamed: A person living in a $1,000,000 property probably does not eat 4 times the amount of a person in a $250,000 one.</p>

<p>There are many other items which are somewhat fixed as well.</p>

<p>That means that higher earners have more discretionary dollars at the end of the day.</p>

<p>OK - let me have it!</p>
 
<p>Recovering:</p>

<p>Little Saigon ... you're making me hungry! I'm gonna have to go one weekend and eat a lot - but certainly not 4x the amount of someone who's waiting for the prices to drop so they can live in their $250,000 house! </p>
 
<i>"I actually thought about getting a 50% DTI loan to buy a bigger home at the inflated prices. It's really amazing how much rationalization can go on (even among smart folks like myself) when you want something really bad. Here we were, making much more money than many people we know, and they own homes and we didn't. We felt something was wrong with us, that we didn't catch the home buying wave early enough, that somehow we were inadequate..."</i><p>


Wow! I don't think I have read or heard anything which expressed better the driving force behind the housing bubble.<p>


Janet - Folks who live in $1 mil homes have bigger monthly costs such as the leased Mercedes they have to have to keep up the appearance.
 
<p><em>I still think Irvine's gonna get punched in the face. Just not as hard. </em></p>

<p>I should support my earlier comment by stating that Irvine properties didn't seem to lose much in the last RE bust. If you dig hard enough, you can find a few condos changing hands in 93-96 for a little less than their 1988-89 purchase price. Meanwhile, properties in many other parts of OC seem to have taken quite a hit over that same time period. I'll take a wild guess that Irvine housing became very illiquid during that time period. </p>
 
<p>Just theory Awgee!</p>

<p>I am assuming some personal responsibilty.</p>
 
I guess that is like when I said to someone my goal is to buy a house in the OC all cash and they laughed at me. Perhaps I don't look like I can afford to buy around here whereas my friend who is making payments on a LS460 does when he has no cash in the bank and is feeding negative flow investment properties?
 
<p>I really have no idea when the 29% came into being norm or who made it that way.</p>

<p>It is just the standard when looking at Cost of living. Which by the way conforming loans, conform if this holds true.</p>

<p class="body">Here's a look at typical debt ratio requirements by loan type:</p>

<p>









Conventional loans:


Housing costs: 26 to 28 percent of monthly gross income.


Housing plus debt costs: 33-36 percent of monthly gross income.







FHA loans:


Housing costs: 29 percent of monthly gross income.


Housing plus debt costs: 41 percent of monthly gross income.







</p>

<p>So I stay with my original thought. Take the median income of these area's and that is a right priced market.</p>
 
awgee: thanks for your comment.





I just recently read an article by a Washington Post report detailing his and his wife's current homeownership experience. They had bought their first home in Washington D.C. for about 495k (a townhome) using an ARM with very little down. They are both professionals (he's a reporter and she's a physician) and wanted to own a place in a good neigborhood where they can raise their kids, and jumped on the first chance they could to own, and now they're wondering if they made a mistake or not. Bloggers were dissing on the couple for being financially imprudent, blah blah blah, and questioning their intelligence since it seems so OBVIOUS to all the bloggers now that they were buying at crazy peak home prices.





When I read that article, I knew EXACTLY how they felt. My wife and I were in the same boat in 2005: we just got married, wife just completed 10 years worth of higher education, acquaintances who never completed school owned 2 or 3 homes, and we thought we DESERVED to own a home after "throwing our money away on rent" for the past 10 years. We didn't want to spend more than 500k since my wife was still studying for her pharmacy board exams and not working full time yet, so we got the best we could for that amount, which was a condo in Tustin Ranch with 100% financing. We thought we'd just sell it in a few years for a little profit (if lucky) or break even (if prices stayed flat), since PRICES NEVER GO DOWN IN IRVINE. We never even thought about the probability of housing prices declining, or that if it did, we might have to bring money to the table to sell our house. Didn't even picture that happening, so blissful were we in our ignorance.





We were more fortunate than many people. Our mortgage payment was a small fraction of our income, and we certainly learned much about what it means to be a homeowner. Just like the couple in the Washington Post story, we wondered if we made a mistake. On the whole, we were not mistaken in wanting to own a home. We weren't even mistaken in getting 100% financing, since it our mortgage payments were very doable. Our mistake was looking purely at what we could afford in terms of payments and trying to get the best we could for those monthly payments at that time. At our income level, we could afford a pretty big monthly payment. What we should have done was think about whether that house was worth the monthly payments and would we be happy in this situation if the projections of selling in a few years doesn't go as planned.





After being introduced to this site and reading the great analysis on this site regarding home valuations, I told my wife we need to sell our house as soon as we can, even at a small loss. Not because we couldn't afford our payments, not because we couldn't make a profit from it, or anything...but because we want to live in a bigger home in the next few years, and we can save more money by renting cheaply to buy that next bigger home where we'll live until we retire. AND since prices were gonna decline.





The difference between me and the Washington Post reporter is that he's just begun to ask the difficult questions, and by the time he's got his answer, his options become very limited due to the events of the last 2 weeks. He and his wife will want a bigger home soon I am sure, but he'll be upside down on his townhouse soon and will have to come up with a big cash outlay to escape his mortgage burden.





This reporter's story, as well as my own, is the reason why I now see why a 20% down payment is such a critical factor in determining home loan approvals. When you have some skin in the game, it makes you think twice about making that purchase...otherwise, that 100% financing seems like Monopoly Money. It's like paying for things with cash versus credit card. If you have to pay for the new plasma with a stack ful of 20 dollar bills, you'd think twice too!





Sorry for the long post, but I had to expound :).
 
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