California courts finally get it right...

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
[quote author="4walls4me" date=1212668786]Obviously I'm struggling with that particular issue and it's why I jumped at the chance to have a real discussion about it. I've also stated it's my ONLY beef with gay marriage/gay rights....if struggling with this one aspect of gay rights kicks me out of the "pro-gay" camp and makes me hater, so be it.



Trooper, thank you (truly) for the discussion. Now that I'm seeing personal judgements being made about me, I think it's time to jump off. But, I really do appreciate it. It'll help me be a more informed voter. You seem very nice and I certainly do wish you well :-)</blockquote>


4W4M - Sorry for the delay, but I got hit with a nasty bout of food poisoning and I didn't want to respond until I was of sound mind and body. It seemed like you really did want to have a real discussion about the issue and I was trying to engage you in that. If you felt like I was coming at you with a pitchfork, I wasn't, and if it came off that way, I'm sorry. My intent was to get you to think deeply about the issue and the implications of (as I read them) your assumptions. If that was more than you were looking for, then I showed no respect for your boundaries and I'm sorry for that too. I thought we had agreed that there is a wide spectrum of where people can fall between "pro gay" and "hater," and I'm left confused by your statement. If I was forced to characterize you, I wouldn't consider you pro gay (as I defined it above) or a hater. Any characterizations I made about you were based on your comments. That I know of, we haven't met, so any characterization was made, at best, on the 1/100th of what I know of you, and, please note, I qualified it that way. You were, and are, free to smack me around and say my reading comprehension sucks, because sometimes it really does.



If you are looking for me to agree with you, I can't at this time based upon what *I* know and what *I* feel is right. I haven't walked in your moccasins, had your upbringing, or life experience and you have your reasons for feeling and thinking as you do. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't respect you or your opinion - I just don't agree with it. And with the idea of having a real discussion, I wanted to introduce what I thought were some persuasive points and get some persuasive points from you in return. Just because I speak like I know everything (hazard of the job), doesn't mean that I believe that I do. (And I don't. There's a lot I don't know. Heck, I'm still mulling over Apcme's explanation of why indexing the tax burden to zip codes to account for cost of living is a bad idea.)



In short, I really would like to have a discussion, to have you tell me that I'm wrong, and tell me there are aspects that I haven't considered. If there are arguments that go into places that are not comfortable, then feel free to say something along the lines of "well, that's interesting, but I'm not really comfortable going in that direction at this time." I would like to deeply understand your position, and at this point I don't. I know that I'm worse off for it.
 
If she were attractive--nah.



Remember, she was mean too, for no reason. And

not all that smart. I adore smart people, which is why I like posting here

and on Calculated Risk.



The way I feel about that is similar to my response when a really ugly stupid man

comes on to me. Or, an icky man. Or I see I particularly repulsive man

coming on to a cute chick. I wonder what the heck he is

thinking of. I think women have a built in ick factor

with some men because we perceive that there is something seriously mentally

wrong with them that you can't put your finger on.



I think non hot women know they are non hot, and are not willing to embarass

themselves flirting or trying to flirt with somebody who will never give them the time of day.

Anyway, she didn't have the insight to understand that she was hopelessly unattractive.



Men never seem to realize they have to settle for someone physically less

attractive, who might be better for them anyway. Typically, they are clueless.



Men who have money or power will attract nicer looking women, who are

biologically primed to scarf up some resources for their possible offspring.



If I ran into a smart, nice attractive woman who came on to me, probably not still.

But, it's never happened. Or, I don't know it's happened, because I didn't

realize it was happening. I can't tell people's

sexual persuation. My son was pointing out some lesbian couples, and I said,

how can you know? They are probably friends. He said, I know, they are.

Ok, ok, I said.



And by the way, I am repeating my complaint that gay men always try to

look their best, even if their best is only average. Straight men have no clue

that they ought to do the same thing if they want to attract somebody.



I suppose gay men really do have an inborn aesthetic sense better than

straight men. Hence all those artists. . . And that applies to an insight

about their own appearance as well as art and fashion.



And I still wanna know how my marriage would be hurt.
 
<em>"I suppose gay men really do have an inborn aesthetic sense better than

straight men. Hence all those artists. . . And that applies to an insight

about their own appearance as well as art and fashion".</em>



No doubt about it. I've always marveled at it... I mean, as an example, take a look at this other thread on a Palm Springs seller marketing his house. Look at that website, look at that house !



Gay male couple.



<a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/2363/">They're probably both gorgeous too !</a>
 
[quote author="Buzzard" date=1212712324][quote author="lawyerliz" date=1212643652]Ok, maybe one of you can ask the signature collectors just how this

is supposed to hurt my marriage? I still wanna know.</blockquote>
Delurking to share my own suspicion:



I have long suspected that homophobia is due in large part to (some) straight men's fear of being sexually objectified in the same way that they themselves objectify women. I remember a remark by my ninth grade English teacher that he felt uncomfortable around gay men because he felt like they were "undressing (him) with their eyes." What I realize now (but was too young to realize then) is that being undressed by someone's eyes is something that happens to women on a regular basis.



Extrapolating from sex to marriage, I suspect that these "haters" view heterosexual marriage as a man's ownership of a woman. It's <em>that</em> view of marriage that is challenged by same-sex couples, which have no similarly obvious cue that they're anything other than a partnership between equals.</blockquote>


This touches on the real cause, but doesn't quite reveal it. I suspect that most straight men do not feel any more threatened by homosexual women than they do by other straight men, as they both fall into the same category of 'competition' for the affections of available women. I think the real basis for the fear straight people have of homosexuals, men in particular, is the tendency men have to be predatory and aggressive in pursuing the object of their affections. Consider for a moment how young men (say between the ages of 16 and 26) behave towards members of the opposite sex. While not all of them are always aggressive all of the time, all of them have either acted that way or watched others act that way at some point in their life. Their fear is that open homosexuality will put them on the receiving end of that same aggressive pursuit. Given my own history, it's not that hard to imagine what I would have felt like if boys were hitting on me as hard as I was hitting on girls.



After my Mom had to politely decline an advance from a lesbian aquaintance, she worried that she was sending off some sort of signal that she was receptive to that kind of advance. She was offended because the flirtations were not welcome, while admitting that she wouldn't have thought about it twice had a man done the same thing. My mom, who has been married 5 times, couldn't care less who gets married to whom. I had a homosexual room mate for the better part of 1993. His boyfriend decided to lick my ear and I decided to knock him out. It wasn't because he was gay, it was because he invaded my personal space. These two unrelated examples show the kind of problems that will arise as homosexuality becomes an accepted part of American society. Most heterosexuals learn how to deal with those awkward moments during puberty but, as most homosexuals are pressured to keep their sexual orientation hidden, each generation of children are robbed of that learning period. This inevitably leads to misunderstandings, fights, and insecurities when those interactions eventually take place in adulthood.



Making gay marriage legal has the side effect of making homosexuality normal which, in turn, means it must be explained to the children of parents that have no understanding or experience with homosexuality. As human history proves, we fear and destroy that which we don't understand. If gay rights advocates win the fight, each successive generation of children will fear a little bit less, learn a little bit more, and look back on this as the Second Emancipation. One can hope...
 
<em>"His boyfriend decided to lick my ear and I decided to knock him out".</em>



ROTFLMAO ! Bet he didn't try that again.



I like your thought process Nude. I've often wondered how many suicides and homicides wouldn't have happened if homosexuality was "normal". I personally know 4 people who have committed suicide. All gay. One was only 17 years old and a childhood friend.



I just want to fit in. Without having to hide a major part of my identity.
 
Well, it would hurt my marriage if somebody came on to the hub, and

he reacted with a fist. The other guy would probably kill him in response,

as he is a totally incompetent in physical fighting. Having a dead hub

would affect my marriage!!



He is morally very honest and fierce and

brave, but not phyically strong. I have beat him arm wresting, and he wasn't

letting me win, either. Long, long time ago.



I did read something interesting, I know not where. Erotic pictures of gay

guys were shown to (presumably) straight guys, wired up somehow, I don't

wanna think of how, to detect responses. The most verbally anti gay guys

showed more responses than those who were indifferent. Conclusion, these

guys were maybe scared of something they detected in themselves.



And yeah, as I posted before, my daughter had a gay roommate who killed

himself. If these guys are extra sensitive, then feeling all that disgust has

surely got to have an effect.
 
Well, today's the day ! Gay marriage becomes legal at 8:00 pm this evening. Here is a story on the first couple in California who will commemorate the event by <a href="http://news.aol.com/story/_a/lesbian-couple-of-55-years-to-marry/20080616064109990001">Saying, "I Do".</a>
 
Anybody you know tying the knot? Invited to any weddings?



The Supreme Court is going to get a good workout of the "full faith and credit" clause

in the constitution.
 
If there's an earthquake while this is legal, guess who'll get the blame? I bet Pat Robinson and his cohort of hate-mongers are just waiting by the sidelines.
 
LL,



Yes, my friends Paul and Kevin are getting married tonight at sunset. Many of my friends are joined in a civil union already, they are mulling over marriage....not sure which route they'll take. Many are worried about the ramifications if they get married, then lose it in November.



Interesting fact I heard on CNN this morning....12,000 gay couples have married in Massachusetts during the past four years. Guess how many have divorced ?



48.



I attended the first L.A. County gay marriage yesterday between Robin Tyler and Diane Olson. It kicked off right at 5:01 pm (I originally thought it was 8:00 pm, but was mistaken) on the Beverly Hills Courthouse steps. They were the original defendant's in the case fighting for marriage. If you saw any local news coverage of it yesterday, I'll be in the background somewhere. I took a bunch of photos but can't figure out how to put them on here. I used to know how to do it, now I'm having a brain fade.



The enormity of the event got the best of me and I started crying. Couldn't hold the tears back....happy tears, tears of dis-belief that it was actually REALLY happening. I don't think there was a dry eye in the place...well, except for the 10 or so homophobes picketing the wedding and yelling out during the middle of the ceremony, "You're going to burn in Hell" ! Nice. Bet none of you had to worry about that at your wedding. I also bet you didn't have SWAT officers like they did.



And like T!m said, California didn't fall off the face of the earth. So far, so good.
 
Any earthquake in California from now to eternity is your fault.

Also, any other disaster, the price of gas, and all the newest foreclosures.

Nice to be so powerful!



Go see the new theology thread!!!
 
Here is an interesting letter written by a Conservative Republican....perhaps some of you can relate.



<em>"Is it right that we tell a committed lesbian couple they cannot marry, and at the same time tell them they cannot inherit from each other tax-free at the first death, like a married couple, because they are not married, that they must pay estate taxes that quickly climb to 50 percent and cannot take spousal advantage of income tax, Social Security and other benefits of a married couple" ?</em>





<a href="http://www.ajc.com/search/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/20/garlocked.html">Conservatives wrong to fight gay marriage</a>
 
He is a libertarian version of conservative--the best kind.



Hmmm, gay marriage v the IRS. Alas, I would not bet on gay

marriage to deprive the gobmint from wanting to maximize their

take.
 
So I was in Rhode Island over the weekend for a convention, and I accidentally ended up at a gay pride parade. It was quite the spectacle!



Anyhow, a few questions/comments:



I saw a sign that read "help us fill the flag" or something to that effect. I assumed it was a commentary on what had happened in California the week before...as in help us get rights in all 50 states. I didn't really see how it could apply to the rainbow flags everywhere since I couldn't figure out what filling a rainbow would mean. Anyone else know what that phrase means in context?



I was there with a stay at home mom friend, and reading this thread helped me a lot when she gave me her negative opinion on gay marriage. She is one of those "but what about the children?" folks (she is all about kids to the point she has a degree in early childhood education). She had also never heard of "DINKs", so I gave her a few things to think about for which she had no retort.



After the parade was over a thought occurred to me that I shared with my friend: "maybe THAT'S why there are so many guys at the My Little Pony convention this year!"
 
Cayci, ...did you happen to see a group holding a large rainbow flag aloft...kind of outstretched like a tarp ? When those people walk by, we all throw money and change into the flag to "Fill the flag". All proceeds go to AIDS research.



And thanks for having a discussion with your friend about gay marriage. Again, let's leave the children out of the whole gay marriage debate....it's about MARRIAGE. Period. Not adoption, not foster parenting....not insemination....etc, etc.



I would think that many of the male MLP'rs would be "my brothers". %-P
 
[quote author="Trooper" date=1214388986]Cayci, ...did you happen to see a group holding a large rainbow flag aloft...kind of outstretched like a tarp ? When those people walk by, we all throw money and change into the flag to "Fill the flag". All proceeds go to AIDS research.



And thanks for having a discussion with your friend about gay marriage. Again, let's leave the children out of the whole gay marriage debate....it's about MARRIAGE. Period. Not adoption, not foster parenting....not insemination....etc, etc.



I would think that many of the male MLP'rs would be "my brothers". %-P</blockquote>


Oh! Ok...yeah. I was behind the crowd so there may have been an outstretched rainbow flag, but I do remember also seeing AIDS-related signs in that group. Thanks!



A straight, male MLP collector is indeed a rarity.



Edit to add link to article:



<a href="http://www.projo.com/news/content/my_little_pony_06-22-08_MJAJGS5_v15.3a39c31.html">News Article</a>



One male collector is featured in the article. My opinion is that he's a total nutjob. He has more ponies than me, lives in a place where they would need to be shipped in, which would cost a sh!tload of money, and...well...23 years old...squealing? I also met him and watched him bound around the convention like a literal kid in a toy store. I have a strong opinion that perhaps if he came to live in America he would find that he no longer has to hide who he is anymore, on many levels.
 
<em>"Part of the answer is that some LGBT people want to marry for the same reason lots of straight people do: committing yourself to trying (let's be honest) to build a life with someone else and having them commit to trying with you fills one of the deepest emotional needs many human beings have". </em>





<a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid55951.asp">Why marriage matters</a>
 
I was in a training class today and bumped into one of my old partners. We worked together for a year back in the late 90's and got along famously. I was "out" to him and he couldn't give a hoot.



Now, this is where it gets interesting....he's a Mormon.



I sat with him today to catch up on many years and remembered that I had read this news story yesterday: <a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid56469.asp">Mormon Church Enters California's Gay Marriage Fight</a> ....so I asked him about it and where he stood.



He politely reminded me that he didn't care that I was a lesbian, but that he had to support his church. Out of respect, I declined to debate him. :down:
 
<strong><span style="font-size: 15px;">Obama Announces Opposition To California's Ballot Measure</span></strong>



<a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid56867.asp">Thank you Barack</a>
 
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