Buyer Beware..A tale of my own stupidity regarding Toll Bros.

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[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237438887]



Is there any way to sugar coat to someone that the gun they are playing with and considering putting in thier face is cocked and loaded, and it's the same gun the last five suckers just used to off themselves?



</blockquote>


Maybe dip the end of the barrel in sugar and invite them to suck on it before they pull the trigger? ;-P



No, really, I dunno. But, it seemed to me the original poster has already realized the deal was not in their best interest and was posting their experience for the edification of any who might be thinking of taking the same path. Quite a courageous thing to do in my book, since I am more prone to hiding my mistakes than exposing them to public opinion and possible ridicule.





Truly, I am grateful to this poster and others who have related their horror stories regarding purchasing a new home. I had no idea the builders were such a bunch of weasels. I HATE losing money, and I would make bad decisions if tens of thousands of dollars worth of deposit were at risk.
 
[quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237444306]Thank you to those that expressed a differing opinion without chastizing me. You are right in saying Toll did me a favor in "pushing me to back out". My DH said that he looks at it as if we lost $40,000 rather than $60,000 (since that is the difference in the current price). You are probably right in saying I would have lost too much in the long run by purchasing from them. As for those who say I am "attacking" Toll, I still have my written contract and their demands so my attorney did tell me I could air my story if I didn't engage in slander. Since I have stated the truth as presented to Toll through my attorney I don't consider this slander, but the facts of what happened to me. I have since learned, shame on me for not doing my homework, that Toll's contract is one of the worst in the business as far as protecting them and leaving the buyer with little recourse. I know for a fact that Shea, a competeing developer in the area, gave back deposits to people who pulled out before their house was built.



As to the poster who talked about the inflated $1.1 price on my house that may be true, but I bought the house for $889,900 in September of 2003 and I sold it for $1.1 in August of 2008. Because I had no second mortgage I probably broke even by the time you figure upgrades we made to the house and real estate commissions. My equity is in cds now at 4%, but they expire in a month or so and I really don't know where the best place to invest the money is. Obviously after reading many posts, the general consensus is that we are not at the bottom of prices yet so I will be waiting to buy. It will eventually go back into real estate at some point. That's just the facts of my situation.</blockquote>


Thank you for posting. Before 2001, I lived in an area where anyone who wanted a new home could get one. The horror stories about builders were frequent and scary. Previous to you, I knew of no one who purchased with Toll. I feel you have reason to "attack" them because they (IMO) wrongly retained $40K. I call that stealing.



I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237450585][quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237444306]Thank you to those that expressed a differing opinion without chastizing me. You are right in saying Toll did me a favor in "pushing me to back out". My DH said that he looks at it as if we lost $40,000 rather than $60,000 (since that is the difference in the current price). You are probably right in saying I would have lost too much in the long run by purchasing from them. As for those who say I am "attacking" Toll, I still have my written contract and their demands so my attorney did tell me I could air my story if I didn't engage in slander. Since I have stated the truth as presented to Toll through my attorney I don't consider this slander, but the facts of what happened to me. I have since learned, shame on me for not doing my homework, that Toll's contract is one of the worst in the business as far as protecting them and leaving the buyer with little recourse. I know for a fact that Shea, a competeing developer in the area, gave back deposits to people who pulled out before their house was built.



As to the poster who talked about the inflated $1.1 price on my house that may be true, but I bought the house for $889,900 in September of 2003 and I sold it for $1.1 in August of 2008. Because I had no second mortgage I probably broke even by the time you figure upgrades we made to the house and real estate commissions. My equity is in cds now at 4%, but they expire in a month or so and I really don't know where the best place to invest the money is. Obviously after reading many posts, the general consensus is that we are not at the bottom of prices yet so I will be waiting to buy. It will eventually go back into real estate at some point. That's just the facts of my situation.</blockquote>


Thank you for posting. Before 2001, I lived in an area where anyone who wanted a new home could get one. The horror stories about builders were frequent and scary. Previous to you, I knew of no one who purchased with Toll. I feel you have reason to "attack" them because they (IMO) wrongly retained $40K. I call that stealing.



I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.</blockquote>




no_vas- I think people with kids feel that way because they don't want their kids bounced around. No one every really makes a long term commitment to renting and so we'd rather buy a place and stay put. We'd like our kids to grow up in the same neighborhood and attend the same school (I think this is the majority opinion). It is also extremely difficult to move with kids. I guess if I was in the situation, I would probably rent in the same neighborhood I intended to buy.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237450585]

I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.</blockquote>


I can't speak for BBT, but figured I would toss in my 2 cents as I somewhat share her sentiment. As you know, I have two kids and it absolutely does effect the length of time I am willing to spend renting versus owning. Mine has more to do with distrust of landlords, though. I would never consider renting from anyone but a well established and professionally-run company so that pretty much limits you to apartments - no SFR's. If I had no kids, time would be of no matter to me. I would wait until the bitter end. Actually, if I had no kids, I may not even be interested in buying at all. If I knew we wouldn't reach rental parity for let's say... 10 years... what is the point in me telling my boys, "Guess what - we're finally buying a house!"...as they head off to college. It would be pointless to me. Being in an apartment, I feel like I am missing out on having something such as a yard, the convenience of a 2-car attached garage, not being attached to noisy neighbors, and also the stability that comes with planting roots, knowing you are not going to be moving again because the landlord decided not to renew the lease, or the house is being foreclosed on, or the wind changed. You are right - when you are looking at just the dollars and cents, it doesn't come out on top as the best choice on paper. All that I know is having kids does affect my timing. That having been said, it is important to do your homework and not be too eager to jump in just because of the kids. I have sat on the sidelines waiting & renting for a year (but waiting 9 years to buy in Irvine.) I will continue to wait as long as my sanity will hold up with four people in an 1,100 sq ft apartment. Some days I think I can go a while. Other days it's a different story. Just 2 cents coming from a parent and how it's affected my holding out. Thanks for reading. (P.S. - No_Vas, when I do buy - I hereby give you permission to ask me if I'm allergic to money, post humorous pictures, or not congratulate me at all. It will be a fair reaction and one that I understand, especially considering I know you only want the best for everyone here.)
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237450585][quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237444306]Thank you to those that expressed a differing opinion without chastizing me. You are right in saying Toll did me a favor in "pushing me to back out". My DH said that he looks at it as if we lost $40,000 rather than $60,000 (since that is the difference in the current price). You are probably right in saying I would have lost too much in the long run by purchasing from them. As for those who say I am "attacking" Toll, I still have my written contract and their demands so my attorney did tell me I could air my story if I didn't engage in slander. Since I have stated the truth as presented to Toll through my attorney I don't consider this slander, but the facts of what happened to me. I have since learned, shame on me for not doing my homework, that Toll's contract is one of the worst in the business as far as protecting them and leaving the buyer with little recourse. I know for a fact that Shea, a competeing developer in the area, gave back deposits to people who pulled out before their house was built.



As to the poster who talked about the inflated $1.1 price on my house that may be true, but I bought the house for $889,900 in September of 2003 and I sold it for $1.1 in August of 2008. Because I had no second mortgage I probably broke even by the time you figure upgrades we made to the house and real estate commissions. My equity is in cds now at 4%, but they expire in a month or so and I really don't know where the best place to invest the money is. Obviously after reading many posts, the general consensus is that we are not at the bottom of prices yet so I will be waiting to buy. It will eventually go back into real estate at some point. That's just the facts of my situation.</blockquote>


Thank you for posting. Before 2001, I lived in an area where anyone who wanted a new home could get one. The horror stories about builders were frequent and scary. Previous to you, I knew of no one who purchased with Toll. I feel you have reason to "attack" them because they (IMO) wrongly retained $40K. I call that stealing.



I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.</blockquote>


Maybe it's an evolutionary holdover. Ex. back in 15,000 BC or so, nomadic life works well if you don't have any kids. But when you do, it's nice to pick a spot of your own and raise the kids there. Or, back in 400 AD, without kids, working as a serf on someone else's farm isn't so bad, but if you are going to have kids and would like to pass the fruits of your labors (ex. the farm) down to them, better to migrate and stake out a claim to your own land instead.

Just a thought, as human emotions don't evolve nearly as quickly as finance and technology do ...
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1237452234]Mine has more to do with distrust of landlords, though. I would never consider renting from anyone but a well established and professionally-run company so that pretty much limits you to apartments - no SFR's. </blockquote>




I think this trust is misplaced. I've rented from a number of small landlords and people who moved to a new house while retaining their previous one as a rental, and they've all worked out fine. Of course, these days you really need IR2 to run a check for you.



But have you seen what happened to the huge apartment company of irvine called Bethany? They've totally screwed the pooch, leaving tenants without water and subsequently evicted by the city for not paying the water bills in AZ. And they bounce checks to their employees and deposits, etc for their 15k units allover the us



http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/tag/bethany-group/
 
I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.</blockquote>


Owning for some will give a sense of stability. Specifically for their kids. Kids tend to make life long friends in elementary schools. And when the parents move, sometime even if it mean 2 blocks away, it might put their kids into a different school. My parents moved once while I was in elementary school. It was devastating because I lost my friends from the old school. I didn't even want to make new friendships b/c I figured it would not last.



To this day, I still think of my best friend from my younger years. I still remember I arrived to this country not knowing a word of English. How the principal called him to the office and asked him to give me a tour of the school. My innocence told me he would be a friend throughout my elementary school year all the way to high school. But because my parents moved, I had a rude awakening. That for a child, your friendship only last as long as your next move.



So I can understand why some parents are willing to own. Even if it means taking a chance of losing their money on the purchase. The monetary lost is nothing compare to the happiness of their children. It's a small sacrifice for those you love.
 
I dunno... in many cities, even if you move out of a certain in-city district, they sometimes have provisions to allow you to keep your kid there.



While I understand the reasons why having kids may not lend towards the nomadic... err... renting lifestyle... I don't think it's as big a deterrent as some people portray. Most of my friends don't even remember people from pre-high school.



I guess it all depends but most younger kids are highly adaptive and some will find a new place every so often as adventurous. This is our 3rd place for my eldest and I don't see any problems so far. Maybe I'll regret it in 20 years when I will hardly see her since she would have decided to travel the world because she got used to "moving around".
 
[quote author="freedomCM" date=1237459966][quote author="SoCal78" date=1237452234]Mine has more to do with distrust of landlords, though. I would never consider renting from anyone but a well established and professionally-run company so that pretty much limits you to apartments - no SFR's. </blockquote>




I think this trust is misplaced. I've rented from a number of small landlords and people who moved to a new house while retaining their previous one as a rental, and they've all worked out fine. Of course, these days you really need IR2 to run a check for you.



But have you seen what happened to the huge apartment company of irvine called Bethany? They've totally screwed the pooch, leaving tenants without water and subsequently evicted by the city for not paying the water bills in AZ. And they bounce checks to their employees and deposits, etc for their 15k units allover the us



http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/tag/bethany-group/</blockquote>


It is my understanding that no one was evicted for not paying the water bills. As far as I know, a tenant may not be evicted for the landlord's non-payment of a bill. One water company was threatening to turn off the water, but the the apartment complexes are in receivership and the courts and the oversight companies and Bethany have all made sure that the water was not turned off. Some trash pick ups were not made, but the complexes were already in receivership and it was the lenders who were not paying the trash bill with the cash flow from the rents. Before receivership, Bethany made sure all utility bills were paid from rent cash flow. Bethany employees have not been paid.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1237500072]Oh... and did Oscar just pull a PANDA?</blockquote>


Apparently yes, and I'm really surprised no one is commenting on that. I don't really care, but it sure did seem like others did when Panda did it. I have a feeling that many people already knew though.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1237502521][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1237500072]Oh... and did Oscar just pull a PANDA?</blockquote>


Apparently yes, and I'm really surprised no one is commenting on that. I don't really care, but it sure did seem like others did when Panda did it. I have a feeling that many people already knew though.</blockquote>


I never cared when Panda did it, nor do I care if Nude does it.
 
I know that the interweb is serious business, but people really do need to have thicker skin. Some of the folks on here are straight shooters and I respect that (even if they can be a little rough around the edges).
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1237502521][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1237500072]Oh... and did Oscar just pull a PANDA?</blockquote>


Apparently yes, and I'm really surprised no one is commenting on that. I don't really care, but it sure did seem like others did when Panda did it. I have a feeling that many people already knew though.</blockquote>


I agree.



- SoCal78, aka Janet
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1237502521][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1237500072]Oh... and did Oscar just pull a PANDA?</blockquote>


Apparently yes, and I'm really surprised no one is commenting on that. I don't really care, but it sure did seem like others did when Panda did it. I have a feeling that many people already knew though.</blockquote>
No, I didn't.



Shortly before the election, I asked zovall to close my "Nude" account. He said he could not without completely erasing all my posts. I would have been fine with that, had it not meant the eradication of the <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/2018/">Nude Tech Support 2.0</a> thread. So I signed out of Nude and fully intended to stop posting. The pull of the politics threads drew me back in and I decided to create Oscar rather than re-emerge as Nude.



How is this different than Panda's multinicking? Well, I never pretended to be two people with active accounts, I never denied being Nude (ask skek, Deuce, prof, cayci, or graphrix and they will confirm that), and aside from answering the occasional PM's I never signed in as Nude. As I explained to those who confronted me about it, sometimes your screen name gains a persona that really isn't you... an expectation that you are this or that when you really are neither. Panda had his own reasons for multinicking, but I did not jump on the bandwagon in bashing him *just* for having multiple nicks but rather what he was doing with them, and I was one of the first to publically call for him to return.



Now, this forum is run by zovall. He has every right to run it his way and demand that members adhere to his rules. I have every right to disagree with how he runs it, and I do, but I don't have the right to demand that he change things to suit me. Instead, I'm honoring his request to leave. I returned only to answer tmare's accusation and this will be my last post. Thank you to everyone for making it a great place to discuss the events and details of the most significant era of my life time. I wish you all successful and happy lives.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237450585][quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237444306]Thank you to those that expressed a differing opinion without chastizing me. You are right in saying Toll did me a favor in "pushing me to back out". My DH said that he looks at it as if we lost $40,000 rather than $60,000 (since that is the difference in the current price). You are probably right in saying I would have lost too much in the long run by purchasing from them. As for those who say I am "attacking" Toll, I still have my written contract and their demands so my attorney did tell me I could air my story if I didn't engage in slander. Since I have stated the truth as presented to Toll through my attorney I don't consider this slander, but the facts of what happened to me. I have since learned, shame on me for not doing my homework, that Toll's contract is one of the worst in the business as far as protecting them and leaving the buyer with little recourse. I know for a fact that Shea, a competeing developer in the area, gave back deposits to people who pulled out before their house was built.



As to the poster who talked about the inflated $1.1 price on my house that may be true, but I bought the house for $889,900 in September of 2003 and I sold it for $1.1 in August of 2008. Because I had no second mortgage I probably broke even by the time you figure upgrades we made to the house and real estate commissions. My equity is in cds now at 4%, but they expire in a month or so and I really don't know where the best place to invest the money is. Obviously after reading many posts, the general consensus is that we are not at the bottom of prices yet so I will be waiting to buy. It will eventually go back into real estate at some point. That's just the facts of my situation.</blockquote>


Thank you for posting. Before 2001, I lived in an area where anyone who wanted a new home could get one. The horror stories about builders were frequent and scary. Previous to you, I knew of no one who purchased with Toll. I feel you have reason to "attack" them because they (IMO) wrongly retained $40K. I call that stealing.



I sincerely would appreciate comments about why the kids made a difference between owning and renting. I've heard this from other people, and have yet to understand why they feel this way.</blockquote>


Quick response on renting:

Hate to move kids, because it is stressful on them, they would like to decorate rooms (paint/hang things etc. and you really can't do that when you rent), living in a small space with hormone raging pre-teens LOL, need to rent a house or condo to have garage, when I checked in this area there were more registered sex offenders in apartments than neighborhood houses (no, I am not knocking apartments and before I had kids I LOVED apartment life!) Also, since I have rented in the condo where I am at now I have had two neighbors say, "this really isn't a good place for kids to live". This cracks me up because the only time you see my kids are to and from the car (they can't and don't skateboard, ride bikes or play outside, no grass anyway, only concrete). Three bedroom apartments are scarce and I am not a fan of common laundry rooms (a girlfriend of mine was raped in one in Orange). Renting houses is a little scary because even if they are paying now, you never know if the owner will stop making payments on the house and then you will be forced to move fairly quickly. I just met with a realtor to look at a rental house and he told me that another couple who wanted the house (doctors making about $10,000 a month each) stopped paying the mortgage on their luxury home in Laguna because it wasn't worth what they paid for it so they "just weren't going to make payments anymore" and walk away. I told my husband he better get to work to help pay for the bailout of their home and the support of octo-moms babies! HA HA Yes, I am being snarky about octo-mom. Advance apology to anyone with 14 kids getting government aid ;)
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1237513576]No, I didn't.



Shortly before the election, I asked zovall to close my "Nude" account. He said he could not without completely erasing all my posts. I would have been fine with that, had it not meant the eradication of the <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/2018/">Nude Tech Support 2.0</a> thread. So I signed out of Nude and fully intended to stop posting. The pull of the politics threads drew me back in and I decided to create Oscar rather than re-emerge as Nude.



How is this different than Panda's multinicking? Well, I never pretended to be two people with active accounts, I never denied being Nude (ask skek, Deuce, prof, cayci, or graphrix and they will confirm that), and aside from answering the occasional PM's I never signed in as Nude. As I explained to those who confronted me about it, sometimes your screen name gains a persona that really isn't you... an expectation that you are this or that when you really are neither. Panda had his own reasons for multinicking, but I did not jump on the bandwagon in bashing him *just* for having multiple nicks but rather what he was doing with them, and I was one of the first to publically call for him to return.



Now, this forum is run by zovall. He has every right to run it his way and demand that members adhere to his rules. I have every right to disagree with how he runs it, and I do, but I don't have the right to demand that he change things to suit me. Instead, I'm honoring his request to leave. I returned only to answer tmare's accusation and this will be my last post. Thank you to everyone for making it a great place to discuss the events and details of the most significant era of my life time. I wish you all successful and happy lives.</blockquote>
Well... multi-nicking aside... I was more talking about the "I will never post here again" PANDAism.



I don't think you should leave.



As much as zovall wants members to be nicer... I don't think he wants anyone packing either. He just wants people to be more conscious of the fact that intent and familiarity is hard to convey here. Since new posters don't know you, they can't determine the nature of your post.



When I first posted here, I was called several names and I almost decided against staying. But being used to other forums, I stuck it out and thankfully those same people who initially derided me, I regard as great sources of information. If I had left, I would probably still be stuck in my money-pit of a house and would never know the joy (and savings) of rentership.



It's up to you... I'll keep an empty trashcan around just in case.
 
Yeah, Oscar... errr... Nude. From zovall's post, it doesn't seem to me like he is saying you should get-to-steppin'. I think he just wants us all to tame the crazy a little bit for the new people. I hope you stick around as either persona. (Side note: I am surprised so many of you felt picked on being a new person. I was warned it would happen but I don't feel it ever did occur with me and I have no idea why. You all have been very nice to me from day one. I am still waiting for the hazing ritual, darn it.)
 
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