Better Location for Resale in Irvine

[irvinebullhousing]

Last night when I pulled into the driveway, I got out of the car and heard my kids screaming and laughing in the backyard.  It was the first day of daylight savings, so they were outside playing, taking advantage of the sunlight.  I decided to sneak up on them by going through our side gate and my 1 1/2 year old yells out "Da da!!" as soon as she sees me come through.  She is swinging on the swingset, along with two of my older kids.  They are having a blast.  We turn the music on and have a little dance party and then I decided to eat my dinner outside because it was so nice out.

Value: Priceless

Awesome

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Last night when I pulled into the driveway,

I don't need a driveway, I just fight it out for the few spots on the street outside our alleyway.

I got out of the car and heard my kids screaming and laughing in the backyard.

I don't allow my kids to scream and laugh outside.

It was the first day of daylight savings, so they were outside playing, taking advantage of the sunlight.

I have a sun allergy.

I decided to sneak up on them by going through our side gate and my 1 1/2 year old yells out "Da da!!" as soon as she sees me come through.

I don't need a sideyard, I just put my stinky trashcans in my garage.

She is swinging on the swingset, along with two of my older kids.  They are having a blast.

I go to the pocket park to use their swingset so I don't have to clean or maintain it.

We turn the music on and have a little dance party

Music and dancing is only for inside the house

and then I decided to eat my dinner outside because it was so nice out.

I only have one table in my house and that's inside... where I am meant to be 24/7.

Value: Priceless

No, everything has a price and some things I am not willing to pay for.

#whoami

 

[Irvinecommuter]

No, everything has a price and some things I am not willing to pay for.

#whoami

Seriously...is there a reason why you feel the need to continue with this discussion?  I could share about the fun that I had with my kids by walking to the park, having dinner next to the pool, and watching them play in the pool without lifting a finger to clean the grill or patio furniture.

But I guess I can't have any of those experiences without a yard. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

No, everything has a price and some things I am not willing to pay for.

#whoami

Seriously...is there a reason why you feel the need to continue with this discussion?

Because I'm bored and it's humorous.

I could share about the fun that I had with my kids by walking to the park, having dinner next to the pool, and watching them play in the pool without lifting a finger to clean the grill or patio furniture.

You already did. But you won't admit there are trade-offs, especially for someone so busy. You have to bring everything to the park, etc etc... so inconvenient.

The one thing I will give you is a pool as I wouldn't want to maintain one. But my friend has one and I can see the benefits of having your own pool for entertaining.

The funniest thing here is you won't recognize the benefits of having your own yard... at all... not even for the increase in land value. That's why everyone keeps taking turns on this pinata.

But I guess I can't have any of those experiences without a yard. 

Do you have a yard or no yard? I don't remember.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

You already did. But you won't admit there are trade-offs, especially for someone so busy. You have to bring everything to the park, etc etc... so inconvenient.

The one thing I will give you is a pool as I wouldn't want to maintain one. But my friend has one and I can see the benefits of having your own pool for entertaining.

The funniest thing here is you won't recognize the benefits of having your own yard... at all... not even for the increase in land value. That's why everyone keeps taking turns on this pinata.

Seriously...sometimes I think you are having a conversation with yourself.  I have repeatedly said that there is a trade off...the question is the relative value you assign to something like a yard versus having a closer park and/or neighborhood school.  The relative value of a yard for me is low so the trade off is not a hard one to make. 

I literally and repeatedly said that a large lot means higher prices...question is whether that price premium is worth it. 

 

[paydawg]

No, everything has a price and some things I am not willing to pay for.

#whoami

Seriously...is there a reason why you feel the need to continue with this discussion?

Because I'm bored and it's humorous.

I could share about the fun that I had with my kids by walking to the park, having dinner next to the pool, and watching them play in the pool without lifting a finger to clean the grill or patio furniture.

You already did. But you won't admit there are trade-offs, especially for someone so busy. You have to bring everything to the park, etc etc... so inconvenient.

The one thing I will give you is a pool as I wouldn't want to maintain one. But my friend has one and I can see the benefits of having your own pool for entertaining.

The funniest thing here is you won't recognize the benefits of having your own yard... at all... not even for the increase in land value. That's why everyone keeps taking turns on this pinata.

But I guess I can't have any of those experiences without a yard. 

Do you have a yard or no yard? I don't remember.

Yes, having a yard increases land value.  But it's an opportunity cost to initially purchase that extra land, right?  What if someone would rather use that $$ to buy Facebook stock back in 2014 instead of a bigger yard in 2014? 

If IC would rather spend his money elsewhere than in a larger yard that he won't use, shouldn't you all consider that maybe he's using his money in other parts of his life that he finds more valuable? 

I wish I had money to have a 4 bdrm, 3CWG, large yard, large sideyards, no neighbors behind me, walking distance to all 3 schools, easy freeway access, etc., etc., etc.. But I don't, so I had to pick and choose. 

Everything is a tradeoff and everybody values things differently.  Why can't everyone on this thread just accept that and let it be? 

 

[bones]

No, everything has a price and some things I am not willing to pay for.

#whoami

Seriously...is there a reason why you feel the need to continue with this discussion?

Because I'm bored and it's humorous.

I could share about the fun that I had with my kids by walking to the park, having dinner next to the pool, and watching them play in the pool without lifting a finger to clean the grill or patio furniture.

You already did. But you won't admit there are trade-offs, especially for someone so busy. You have to bring everything to the park, etc etc... so inconvenient.

The one thing I will give you is a pool as I wouldn't want to maintain one. But my friend has one and I can see the benefits of having your own pool for entertaining.

The funniest thing here is you won't recognize the benefits of having your own yard... at all... not even for the increase in land value. That's why everyone keeps taking turns on this pinata.

But I guess I can't have any of those experiences without a yard. 

Do you have a yard or no yard? I don't remember.

Yes, having a yard increases land value.  But it's an opportunity cost to initially purchase that extra land, right?  What if someone would rather use that $$ to buy Facebook stock back in 2014 instead of a bigger yard in 2014? 

If IC would rather spend his money elsewhere than in a larger yard that he won't use, shouldn't you all consider that maybe he's using his money in other parts of his life that he finds more valuable? 

I wish I had money to have a 4 bdrm, 3CWG, large yard, large sideyards, no neighbors behind me, walking distance to all 3 schools, easy freeway access, etc., etc., etc.. But I don't, so I had to pick and choose. 

Everything is a tradeoff and everybody values things differently.  Why can't everyone on this thread just accept that and let it be? 

I think everyone understands this.  It's the way he chooses to argue this point that baits people to respond.  And maybe that's what he wants.  If he explained it the way you are, I think people would be like, ok whatever, next thread.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I think everyone understands this.  It's the way he chooses to argue this point that baits people to respond.  And maybe that's what he wants.  If he explained it the way you are, I think people would be like, ok whatever, next thread.

I am seriously curious about how I "baited" people.  We can go back to the start of this conversation.

Me: 

I actually don't like PP that much.  I'm not a yard person and everything is way too spread out for me. 

then

We had this discussion before...PP v. Stonegate.  I like being able to walk to the local park/pool with my kids and don't need the headache of taking care of my yard.  I can BBQ at the pool and let someone else maintain it.

then Bones

For me, the yard is not really that important but I like what the yard gives you: space between your neighbors. And let?s be honest, no one?s taking care of their own yard in Irvine. Every day on next door are posts asking for gardener recs.

then me

Sure but then I have to pay someone more money to take care of a bigger yard and then doe things like replanting or fix sprinklers etc.  The privacy thing is certainly a plus but most Irvine neighborhoods are pretty quiet.

then a day later, IHO

he cost of taking care of a yard is way less than Mello Roos... and even if you don't use it, it's nice to have when you entertain, if you have a dog, if your kids want to play outside but you can't take them to the pocket park, or if they have some project that requires outdoor space and you can't leave it drying in the nearest park.

But people like to rationalize to explain why they don't "want" something. Like "I don't want a living room because I don't use it" or "I don't have enough people to eat at a formal dining room"... but isn't good to have that option? How about "I don't want a driveway because we park in the garage"? Except, when you have guests over, or if you need to do something in the garage and you don't have to park your car 3 motorcourts down.

I guess I'm claustrophobic. I need space. I can't even believe that Tiny House is a thing

Again, IHO is the one calling me a stooge for TIC

 

[irvinehomeowner]

@paydawg:

And just remember, we already took the extra cost out of the equation just to see what IC would say.

And you know what he says? "You can't take the price out!"

I have even cited examples where the bigger lot does not cost extra... he ignores those comments (conveniently) and continues with his "but it cost more" rhetoric.

IC has said multiple times that he doesn't like a yard because of the low usage, extra initial cost and the ongoing maintenance. What we are positing is if we take those negatives away, does he still not like a yard?

You already did. But you won't admit there are trade-offs, especially for someone so busy. You have to bring everything to the park, etc etc... so inconvenient.

The one thing I will give you is a pool as I wouldn't want to maintain one. But my friend has one and I can see the benefits of having your own pool for entertaining.

The funniest thing here is you won't recognize the benefits of having your own yard... at all... not even for the increase in land value. That's why everyone keeps taking turns on this pinata.

Seriously...sometimes I think you are having a conversation with yourself.  I have repeatedly said that there is a trade off...the question is the relative value you assign to something like a yard versus having a closer park and/or neighborhood school.

The relative value of a yard for me is low so the trade off is not a hard one to make. 

That's not the trade-off I'm talking about. I'm talking about the trade-off of the inconvenience of having to go to a pocket park to eat, play and entertain. But you keep wrapping that up in the premium trade-off. And I'm not asking you if the premium is worth it either, you already said it wasn't. What I'm asking is if there were no increase in cost, thus no trade-off, do you see the benefits of a yard?

This is where you say: BUT THERE HAS TO BE A PREMIUM!!

But there have been examples of where bigger lots within a certain percentage do not.

So let's forget the cost, premium or whatever you want to crutch on.

Did you answer any of these questions yet:

1. What are the benefits of having a yard?
2. Do you even have a yard?

I literally and repeatedly said that a large lot means higher prices...question is whether that price premium is worth it. 

You keep saying that. But that's not answering the above questions.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Again, IHO is the one calling me a stooge for TIC

At least 'stooge' is closer to 'fodder' than 'shill'.

I think you have a slight disassociation disorder with written words as you keep thinking I'm calling you something that I have not. Or you are purposely changing the word to garner sympathy for your position.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

And just remember, we already took the extra cost out of the equation just to see what IC would say.

And you know what he says? "You can't take the price out!"

Why is there a need to deal in non-reality.  Show me a situation where a house with similar layout with a bigger lot is priced the same as one with a smaller lot.

That's not the trade-off I'm talking about. I'm talking about the trade-off of the inconvenience of having to go to a pocket park to eat, play and entertain. But you keep wrapping that up in the premium trade-off. And I'm not asking you if the premium is worth it either, you already said it wasn't. What I'm asking is if there were no increase in cost, thus no trade-off, do you see the benefits of a yard?

I understand the trade-offs...having a yard means that I don't have to take everything to the local park.  But having a yard also means I have to take care of it and probably buy and maintain patio furniture and/or BBQ. 

Again, for the ten thousandth time, there are benefits (and cons) to having a yard.  There is no dispute about that.  The dispute is as to the extent of those benefits (or cons) and the value you put on them as an individual or as a family. 

1. What are the benefits of having a yard?
2. Do you even have a yard?

1.  For me, the benefit of having yard would be increased privacy and a closer space for my kids to play in.
2.  Yes.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Again, IHO is the one calling me a stooge for TIC

At least 'stooge' is closer to 'fodder' than 'shill'.

I think you have a slight disassociation disorder with written words as you keep thinking I'm calling you something that I have not. Or you are purposely changing the word to garner sympathy for your position.

Or I just choose not to call people names.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Again, IHO is the one calling me a stooge for TIC

At least 'stooge' is closer to 'fodder' than 'shill'.

I think you have a slight disassociation disorder with written words as you keep thinking I'm calling you something that I have not. Or you are purposely changing the word to garner sympathy for your position.

Or I just choose not to call people names.

Saying you are fodder for TIC isn't calling you a name.

It's a shortcut way to say that you are the demographic for TIC's marketing of homes with small lots... which you selectively are not remembering but I did say earlier.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Again, IHO is the one calling me a stooge for TIC

At least 'stooge' is closer to 'fodder' than 'shill'.

I think you have a slight disassociation disorder with written words as you keep thinking I'm calling you something that I have not. Or you are purposely changing the word to garner sympathy for your position.

Or I just choose not to call people names.

Saying you are fodder for TIC isn't calling you a name.

It's a shortcut way to say that you are the demographic for TIC's marketing of homes with small lots... which you selectively are not remember but I did say earlier.

I remember.  Fodder also denotes an individual without independent will and doing what others tell them to do despite obvious negative outcomes.

It's not possible that TIC made a product in a price range to include things high on my priority list? 

You also like to dismiss my priority list as "excuses" or "rationalization".

 

[irvinehomeowner]

And just remember, we already took the extra cost out of the equation just to see what IC would say.

And you know what he says? "You can't take the price out!"

Why is there a need to deal in non-reality.  Show me a situation where a house with similar layout with a bigger lot is priced the same as one with a smaller lot.

I did. I don't look at new homes now but I distinctly remember homes with varying lot sizes but the same exact model having similar pricing. This was in the Woodbridge Branches community, 2010 Home Collection and I think even Stonegate's first SFR neighborhood (forgot the name). This was also the case for PP in the early phases.

You can do this in resale, find same size homes with different lot sizes for the same price but I'm too lazy... and I don't want to go through the trouble bones did only for you to criticize my use of tract names.

That's not the trade-off I'm talking about. I'm talking about the trade-off of the inconvenience of having to go to a pocket park to eat, play and entertain. But you keep wrapping that up in the premium trade-off. And I'm not asking you if the premium is worth it either, you already said it wasn't. What I'm asking is if there were no increase in cost, thus no trade-off, do you see the benefits of a yard?

I understand the trade-offs...having a yard means that I don't have to take everything to the local park.  But having a yard also means I have to take care of it and probably buy and maintain patio furniture and/or BBQ. 

Again, for the ten thousandth time, there are benefits (and cons) to having a yard.  There is no dispute about that.  The dispute is as to the extent of those benefits (or cons) and the value you put on them as an individual or as a family. 

We are agreed on this.

1. What are the benefits of having a yard?

1.  For me, the benefit of having yard would be increased privacy and a closer space for my kids to play in.

Finally.

2. Do you even have a yard?

2.  Yes.

That's what I thought. So you are already paying the "landscape and maintenance" premium. Is it really that much? That's probably why you didn't want to admit it because it would weaken your stance. It's okay... maybe your yard is like BTB's and just concrete pavers and zero maintenance. And the follow up question... do you use your small yard? Or is it "never" like another member here said?

I think we can conclude that if a little extra backyard space didn't cost you anything (and you still had access to a public park/pool) you wouldn't mind it.

#butextraspaceHAStohaveapremium!!

 

[Irvinecommuter]

That's what I thought. So you are already paying the "landscape and maintenance" premium. Is it really that much? That's probably why you didn't want to admit it because it would weaken your stance. It's okay... maybe your yard is like BTB's and just concrete pavers and zero maintenance. And the follow up question... do you use your small yard? Or is it "never" like another member here said?

I think we can conclude that if a little extra backyard space didn't cost you anything (and you still had access to a public park/pool) you wouldn't mind it.

Again...it seems like you are having a discussion with yourself

I literally wrote: 

Sure but then I have to pay someone more money to take care of a bigger yard and then doe things like replanting or fix sprinklers etc.  The privacy thing is certainly a plus but most Irvine neighborhoods are pretty quiet.

I also talked about people spending like $150 to $250K on their yards in Ladera Ranch.  That is a significantly larger initial investment than I did with my yard.

I also wrote:

I might be wrong, but between the same two houses that are the same prices, I think Irvinecommuter will choose the one with a smaller yard because he will think it will cost less for him to maintain. Am I right, IC?

Not necessarily but the issue is that such a scenario does not exist.  A larger lot pretty much means higher costs.  Question is whether one wishes to the pay the lot premium. 

My point regarding maintenance costs is that the existence of such a cost reduces the value of a yard to me, not that a larger lot has no value.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I remember.  Fodder also denotes an individual without independent will and doing what others tell them to do despite obvious negative outcomes.

Actually, fodder is more passive. I don't think you do what TIC tells you to do, but you accept what they offer because they control the pricing and features.

It's not possible that TIC made a product in a price range to include things high on my priority list? 

This is where I think we differ in thinking... it's not like they give you a choice.

TIC could certainly make homes with bigger lots, sideyards and driveways but that cuts into their profits... so they make homes with those features more expensive to make you think that you don't want those things because they cost more. Where in reality, we all want those things but because we don't walk with our wallets, TIC can continue to put them on us.

This is why PP was so popular because it bucked the TIC paradigm... and then 5 Points got greedy.

You also like to dismiss my priority list as "excuses" or "rationalization".

That's where the above comes into play.

I can admit that I am fodder/shill/stooge for Irvine living as a whole. I rationalize paying such high prices for location, safety, education, streetball, weather, etc... and I'm okay with it.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

It's not possible that TIC made a product in a price range to include things high on my priority list? 

This is where I think we differ in thinking... it's not like they give you a choice.

TIC could certainly make homes with bigger lots, sideyards and driveways but that cuts into their profits... so they make homes with those features more expensive to make you think that you don't want those things because they cost more. Where in reality, we all want those thing but because we don't walk with our wallets, TIC can continue to put them on us.

This is why PP was so popular because it bucked the TIC paradigm... and then 5 Points got greedy.

They could but that would likely increase the prices of the home.  BTW, TIC doesn't mandate the lot size, the builders are the ones who choose what size lot they want.  I mean Irvine Pac is TIC but other builders could elect to give out bigger lots per unit but then they would be adding to their own costs.

Not that different from Five Points.

Construction of the model homes at the project is expected to begin in the next few months. Sales could begin as soon as March, according to Five Point chief executive Emile Haddad.

The nearly $472,000 average per-lot price that builders paid for the latest batch of land at Cadence Park isn?t the most expensive residential land deal seen at the former El Toro marine base.

Lot prices averaged about $460,000 for homes at the development?s first community, Pavilion Park; $495,000 for the second community, Beacon Park; and about $313,000 for the assortment of attached townhomes and condos now selling at its latest community, Parasol Park.

https://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/nov/08/five-point-sells-more-land-homes-plots-retail/

Doesn't the market bear what it bears?  Yes PP sold well but so did SG.  BP also has big lots but took a long time to sell while EW is selling like crazy.  If what you say is true, then one should buy in BP rather than EW.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

It's not possible that TIC made a product in a price range to include things high on my priority list? 

This is where I think we differ in thinking... it's not like they give you a choice.

TIC could certainly make homes with bigger lots, sideyards and driveways but that cuts into their profits... so they make homes with those features more expensive to make you think that you don't want those things because they cost more. Where in reality, we all want those thing but because we don't walk with our wallets, TIC can continue to put them on us.

This is why PP was so popular because it bucked the TIC paradigm... and then 5 Points got greedy.

They could but that would likely increase the prices of the home.  BTW, TIC doesn't mandate the lot size, the builders are the ones who choose what size lot they want.  I mean Irvine Pac is TIC but other builders could elect to give out bigger lots per unit but then they would be adding to their own costs.

Not that different from Five Points.

Construction of the model homes at the project is expected to begin in the next few months. Sales could begin as soon as March, according to Five Point chief executive Emile Haddad.

The nearly $472,000 average per-lot price that builders paid for the latest batch of land at Cadence Park isn?t the most expensive residential land deal seen at the former El Toro marine base.

Lot prices averaged about $460,000 for homes at the development?s first community, Pavilion Park; $495,000 for the second community, Beacon Park; and about $313,000 for the assortment of attached townhomes and condos now selling at its latest community, Parasol Park.

https://www.ocbj.com/news/2017/nov/08/five-point-sells-more-land-homes-plots-retail/

Actually I'm not sure what TIC does now. They redid how they did new homes in 2010. Instead of selling plots of land to builders, they subcontracted them to just design and sell the homes. This is where we saw a shift in home layouts... introduction of the Cali rooms, removal of formal living and dining rooms and the move to alleyway homes.

Not sure if they went back to selling land to builders... I think that's the case for the larger homes and IPac does all the smaller home projects... where they "force" designs on buyers.

Doesn't the market bear what it bears?  Yes PP sold well but so did SG.  BP also has big lots but took a long time to sell while EW is selling like crazy.  If what you say is true, then one should buy in BP rather than EW.

I didn't really look at BP as much as PP, but from what I remember, they were higher priced and less desirable designs (unless you like Legos). This is what I meant by post-PP, 5 Points went the way of TIC.

 

[paydawg]

Quick question.  Generally, what's the difference in Mello Roos between SG and PP, assuming the same size house?

I'm sure that has been answered elsewhere, but if somebody knows that difference off the top of their head, that would be great.