$825 Billion Stimulus Plan

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
The "stimulus" plan includes $50 billion for the National Endowment for the Arts.

So, you did not like Ron Paul for whatever reason.

Americans are getting exactly what they deserve.
 
This is the greatest scam of all time!



Last year we got 600/1200 dollar checks as part of a 150 billion dollar stimulus package



Now we get 500/1000 dollar checks as part of an 819 billion dollar stimulus package????????



WTF!?!?
 
[quote author="skek" date=1233286880][quote author="bltserv" date=1233286080]I have a vested interest in the Steel business. My family has owned land since the Civil War in a part of the Minnesota Mesabi Range. In the 80`s the entire steel business was wiped clean. All the Unions and thousands lost jobs. Closed plants. Then in the late 90s. The business began to come back. Then the Chinese decided to DUMP steel well below their cost to produce in 2002. Dont lose track its our money that they are using. They are converting their slave labor into the ability to target our industries that remain OURS. Do you want the United States to use Slave labor to compete with China ? Can you live on .50 Cents an hour? Global Econmic Pie ? Say that it when it takes your paycheck away and another country is obviously selling steel well below its cost to manufacture to disrupt competition.</blockquote>


Because you have a vested interest in the steel industry, I can understand why you feel the way you do. But you are confusing two issues: (1) comparative/competitive advantage, and (2) unfair competition. If China can fairly produce steel cheaper than the United States, it is in the global economic interest that China produces more steel and we produce less. Granted, that will disrupt the American steel industry, and it is our obligation to help those displaced, but we all benefit by moving steel production to the low-cost producer.



On the other hand, you are absolutely right that China and many other developing nations compete unfairly. Whether through currency manipulation, slave labor, lax intellectual property enforcement or dumping, such actions prevent the global marketplace from acting as a level playing field. So I agree with you that global trade norms must be enforced. But, they aren't enforced by engaging in protectionism, we have multilateral institutions through which these disputes can be resolved, including the WTO. If I recall, in recent years, both the EU and US have pursued complaints against the Chinese for steel dumping.</blockquote>


Another perspective is National Defense. Do you think it prudent that the Steel producers

in this country shut down because we cant compete with the cost of Chinese Labor? Going to get a bit sticky when we need to import steel to build that Aircraft Carrier.



Comparative/Competitive advantage works fine for commodities like food and clothes. But go ahead and put things like Oil, Steel, Airplanes, Computer Software, Customer Support,

Childrens Toys containing Lead, Pet Food and Baby formula thats Poison. Keep an open mind. In your blindness to keep protectionism from the market place. You can create other even larger problems for our country with a one way approach to trade. Maybe we should sell our ports to the guys in the Middle East ? Union Oil to the Chinese ? Boeing and the other defense contractors. Come on. Lets go whole Hog with the opening up.



Reagans promise of Supply Side Economics, the Laffer Curve, and open trade. Are coming back to bite us right now. Your "Comparitive Advantage" is part of what created this crisis.



"Macroeconomic monetary policy is often adapted to address the depletion of a nation's currency from domestic hands by the issuance of more money, leading to a wide range of historical successes and failures. These effects of comparative advantage in particular are an underlying influence leading to imbalances that epitomize some of the recent financial crises. The Global financial crisis of 2008?2009 is no exception".
 
Skek.



Good Debate.



Food is easy to grow. Its great we can get fruit and vegetables from South America

when its out of season. Farming and Steel are vastly different commodities.



Try that with a shut down steel plant. Just grow steel ?

It could take you a decade to get everything back into full production. From the Huge Shovels that cost 10`s of Millions. To the Taconite processing plants that cost 100`s of millions.

Guess where the largest open pit Iron Mine in the world is ? Been in production for 100 years. Hint. Its not in China.



<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-Rust-Mahoning_Open_Pit_Iron_Mine">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-Rust-Mahoning_Open_Pit_Iron_Mine</a>



So we should ignore one of our Greatest National Mineral Resources because the Chinese

can Pump and Dump a market freely ? We are letting our country get scammed.



In theory you have a good argument. But in fact it has its exceptions.

Steel is one of those exceptions. Ever heard of trade deficits ? We need to be producing something in this country to try to keep a trade balance.



One would think our vast mineral deposits would be a good place to keep in production.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1233289172]The "stimulus" plan includes $50 billion for the National Endowment for the Arts.

So, you did not like Ron Paul for whatever reason.

Americans are getting exactly what they deserve.</blockquote>


I thought it was $50 <strong>m</strong>illion? <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html">Just checked</a>, yep, it's still 2.5% of the money granted for just child-care alone and a tiny fraction of the total.



Why bitching about the arts and no bitching about "research", for example? I see no difference between a scientist getting a grant to do their thing and an artist getting a grant to do theirs.



Just to add: <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/">http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/</a>
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1233299243][quote author="awgee" date=1233289172]The "stimulus" plan includes $50 billion for the National Endowment for the Arts.

So, you did not like Ron Paul for whatever reason.

Americans are getting exactly what they deserve.</blockquote>


I thought it was $50 <strong>m</strong>illion? <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html">Just checked</a>, yep, it's still 2.5% of the money granted for just child-care alone and a tiny fraction of the total.



Why bitching about the arts and no bitching about "research", for example? I see no difference between a scientist getting a grant to do their thing and an artist getting a grant to do theirs.



Just to add: <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/">http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/</a></blockquote>
I don't care if it's 50 cents. The nebulous "arts" are still entertainment in one form or another and I don't think financing them with future tax dollars is the proper use of those tax dollars. As long as there is one nutrition-deprived child in the country *any* money spent on the "arts" is being horribly misspent.



I know this is personal for you, that it touches your buttons so to speak, but supporting the National Endowment of the Arts is a luxury we can't afford. Ballet, sculpture, opera, theatre... the popular stuff is self-supporting anyway, either through ticket sales, direct purchase, or private endowment.
 
[quote author="skek" date=1233299304]Thanks, blt. I'm enjoying this too.



Let me repeat -- dumping is not fair trade. I am not advocating unfair trade. Dumping should result in economic sanctions. But the spending bill in Congress is not addressing unfair trade practices, it is legislating populist protectionism in the guise of economic stimulus.



I'm not sure I agree with you about food being "easy to grow" once you abandon the industry -- once those fields are lost, people will build things on them. That can't be undone quickly. No one is growing strawberries on the former farms that are now the home of South Coast Plaza any time soon.



The point is, whether jobs move out of town, state or country, there will always be disruption in economies. It is painful and tragic for those who experience it, but it is necessary for long term economic growth and frankly, it encourages adaptation and innovation, two things Americans are the best in the world at. I suspect the same American ingenuity would help the steel industry adapt and do just fine without protectionism.



I've acknowledged that there are exception to every rule, but you haven't demonstrated why steel is an exception, other than wishing it to be so.</blockquote>


Strawberries. Thats a laugher. You can plow all of the Orange Groves in Irvine.

And Plant Strawberries in one season. Look along the 5 Freeway. Once upon a time

it smelled of Orange Blossom. They were gone in a season.

It would be good business to plow the Inland Empire for farming. Better ROI these days.



For some reason all the Economics based on Perpetual never ending Growth have become flawed.

Kind of like the same flawed thinking that says. Home prices Never Decline.

Your Formula has that fatal flaw. "Long Term Econmic Growth" Same basic flaw in the RE market

with Home Appreciation as a never ending constant. Now lets see how a Japan Like Deflation of a dozen years works with your supply sided economic models that you assume are constant.



Take your old Reagan economic Models and throw them in the dumpster.
 
[quote author="skek" date=1233302783]blt, I think with your last post you have elevated "missing the point" to an art form. Congratulations and good luck.</blockquote>


Here is the point you are missing. Unless we get control of our trade and our money supply.

The only course of action is to print our way out of this to bring down the debt.

Otherwise we will default on our Treasuries.



<img src="http://www.bltserv.com/images/art.50.billion.zimbabwe.afp.gif" alt="" />
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1233299243][quote author="awgee" date=1233289172]The "stimulus" plan includes $50 billion for the National Endowment for the Arts.

So, you did not like Ron Paul for whatever reason.

Americans are getting exactly what they deserve.</blockquote>


I thought it was $50 <strong>m</strong>illion? <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html">Just checked</a>, yep, it's still 2.5% of the money granted for just child-care alone and a tiny fraction of the total.



Why bitching about the arts and no bitching about "research", for example? I see no difference between a scientist getting a grant to do their thing and an artist getting a grant to do theirs.



Just to add: <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/">http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jan/26/eric-cantor/does-stimulus-package-really-include-300000-sculpt/</a></blockquote>


Million? Oops, my mistake.

Three wrongs do not make a right. Research, arts, child care? It is all wrong, and there is no difference.



I used the NEA to emphasize a point that this is not money spent on job creating stimulus. It is Obama and politicians spending your future to pay for votes. Some change, huh?

Mc Cain would have been no different.

The American public are getting exactly what they voted for.
 
Biden, on CNBC, just said the $825,000,000,000 stimulus package will produce between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 jobs. And he said the purpose of the package is to provide jobs.

He better start thinking a bit smarter. If, and that is a <strong>huge IF</strong>, the package produces 4,000,000 jobs, each job will cost $206,250 to produce. Is it just me, or is this about the stupidest job producing package anybody could think up?



Cayci - I got my billions and millions correct this time.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1233307629] Is it just me, or is this about the stupidest job producing package anybody could think up?

</blockquote>


Wait until the Senate is done with it...
 
I would like to get in on this protectionism/trade issue.



On eof the challenges that we have is that we are a very mature economy. For example, we have the highest saturation of automobiles per capita in the world. We raelly do not need that many more cars, which is one of the problems that the big three are facing. Europe is even more mature than we are, and key nations are loosing population (as is Japan).



The problem wuith manufacturers and the labor that supports it in mature economies is diminishing marginal demand <em><strong>and increased efficiency</strong></em>. That's right, efficiency is detrimental. Because marginal demand is weak, every increase in efficiency means that less people are required to produce products for that economy. There are two ways to deal with this: 1) Full lobotomies for people who have the aptitude to come up with more efficient ways to manufacture something; or 2) "Import Demand" - basically exporting items to other markets.



That is where we are at with Caterpillar and Boeing. We are not likely to have "Grand Coulee Dam and TVA" program in our future. We have been there and done that. Likewise, we are saturated with air carriers and planes. However, China and India have demand for these sorts of things. This is why Caterpillar and Boeing have been pressuring Washington with their disfavor over any new "Buy American" programs. The people who will get hurt the worst in a trade showdown will be manufacturing workers. This is one of the reasons why protectionist countries have such high unemployment rates (yes, I'm looking at you, France, and your 20 year unemployment low of 7.5%).



The other segment that will get hit hard is agriculture, because we definately produce way more than we can consume.



Protectionism is definately a "Watch out what you wish for" game.
 
I find it unusual how the same people who moan and groan over foreign countries "dumping" their cheap goods and services into the US are also the bleeding hearts who cry out that something needs to be done to alleviate the pain and suffering of most the population in the previous country that used cheap labor to dump their products into the US. It can't be both ways, ether you allow a country to use cheap labor to produce a product that will end up in foreign countries, or you give your $100 a year to help Raju in India to feed his children. Either his company pays for the food or the American subsidy does, but either way it happens. The problem is over the short run people don't see the balancing out that occurs but given a long enough timeframe it does happen (see post WWII Japan and Italy) These countries end up coming to a point of equilibrium with the market and then find their area of competitive advantage (japan-consumer electronic and auto, Italy-High end agriculture and textile/leather products).



At the end of the day, it is the CONSUMER who decides whose product is used. Protectionist ideas aren't needed when your fellow countrymen buy your products...to bad the American worker, and I use the term loosely, doesn't often take enough pride in their work to make it count.



My import business relies on that cheap Chinese labor you people have been mentioning, but what the uninformed fail to mention is that besides a cheaper price I get a superior product. Hard to beat that in capitalist economy, but don't worry our handlers are taking care of that comrades.
 
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