10 men walked into a bar...

NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1236230180][quote author="Oscar" date=1236229631][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1236215568][quote author="trrenter" date=1236213988]Flat tax.</blockquote>


Ah ? the old switch from progressive taxation to regressive taxation play. Wasn?t that the harbinger of the End of Days for every great society over the past 3000 years?</blockquote>


No, the harbinger would be when local people decide the benefits of independence are no longer outweighed by the benefits of inclusion. It happened to every Chinese dynasty, the Greek, Roman, and Ottoman empires, and every colonial power since the Magna Carta. You are attempting to argue that if only the powerful rulers hadn't tried to overly tax the poor they would have extended their empire's glorious existence indefinitely. That is putting the cart before the horse, as the poor only revolt when there is leadership at the local level and I have yet to hear of a band of revolutionaries who were poor/uneducated when they decided to revolt. The harbinger you are loking for is the escalation of taxation on the productive class, as they will only stand for so much before they throw off the yoke and either expatriate or revolt.</blockquote>


This is good stuff, but this isn't the argument I'm making. I have made two blanket statements that have been misinterperted by two different users. Let me clarifiy them.



1) The majority of the 10 person crew shouldn't be drinking beer because they can't afford it without the subsidy.

2) The move from progressive to regressive taxation is (one of many) common signposts on the road to Hell. Oscar cited the victims. It obviously wasn't thier only problems.



The solution is simple. Stop subsidizing beer. And I?m disappointed nobody caught the most important part of the story.</blockquote>


Meh, I scanned the thread until I found something worth talking about. Beer subsidies were not my intended topic.
 
[quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236230265][quote author="awgee" date=1236217712][quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them.



When I first came to this country, I wasn't well off. In turn, I also favored a democratic system as it tended to benefit me more.

Today I have financial stability that I haven't had in the past. At the same time I favor the republican system as it tends to benefit me more. I feel a bit guilty thinking that way, because it is selfish. You know it, I know it.



I know personally how much having lower taxes and education grants helped me. Perhaps I wouldn't be in the same situation today if I didn't receive help from the government. Therefore, I'm generally for the tax breaks for the lower/mid class. However, the problem I have is that there are way too many lazy mfer's out there that add no value to the system and never will. So my tolerance of tax breaks for the lower/middle class is fading fast.</blockquote>


You are speaking for yourself and not all of us. I have been for less governement and less social programs since I was old enough to vote, even when I had nothing.



Long story. Ready?





My father and I were living in Europe as a result of his taking a consulting position in his industry. He went from having a middle class income to an upper, upper middle class income overnight. Living in Europe during Watergate and the end of the Vietnam war and attending an international school at age thirteeen was a bit of an eye opener for me. While riding in my dad's new BMW, I had this great idea and expressed it to my father: "Dad, since you are making so much more money now, why don't you give <em>such and such</em> an amount to <em>this or that</em> charity?"





His reponse: "You know that ski trip you are going on to Austria? Instead of me paying for that ski trip, how about if I use that money for the charity you suggest, and I will match that amount to double the contribution?"



It was a great way to teach me not make others pay for my values and to puy my money where my mouth was.</blockquote>


What you are describing is something completely different. Not everybody is born in a position where they ride around in their daddys BMW. When you have money...its easy to make money. Someone born in a poor family has a unfair advantage compared to someone born in a rich family. Everything from education, starting capital, expenses etc. Everything adds up and can significantly alter ones success. If you were all of a sudden making 10 bucks an hour, can't afford college, and have to feed 3 kids, would you want tax breaks for the rich? My point is that everybody wants a situation that best fills their pockets.



Getting a tax break for myself because I didn't have money is almost the same situation as ones' papa giving thier child a jump start in life. If your father didn't pay for you college or give you anything to help you in life, and you did everything on your own - then I salute you.</blockquote>


When I left at eighteen, I left with next to nothing.

But, admittedly, a few years later when I went to a four year achool from a two year, he did chip in.



But, also, having little or more than a little never changed my views on taking from the government. And your point that everybody wants a situation that best fills their pocket is not correct. It is not correct with me and never has been. I have never voted my pocketbook, and always voted principle, even when I had nothing or next to nothing.
 
bv - I honestly think that this is the biggest problem with our current society. People are selfish and always think of what will feel best immediately as opposed to doing what is right.







Even in this forum I constantly read someone's opinion on what the solution is based on what will work best. It does not seem to occur to anybody that it may be wrong for the government to expropriate someone else's productivity, (life). If they think it is a good cause then it is ok to take someone else's money, tax, in order to fulfill their grand wishes.







I do not think the way I do because it is what is best for me. I have thought and have determined what I think to be what is right and what is wrong. I have determined that very little of right and wrong is relative to one's circumstance. Some poor people do not steal no matter how hungary they are. Some rich people do steal no matter how much they do have. Circumstances do not determine character. I have made bad and selfish decisions when I could have afforded to be good and generous. And I have been good and generous when it was costly. You?
 
[quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them...</blockquote>


Your selfishness (as you said) is not reflected in everyone else. I make decent money and I am not wanting tax breaks. I do not want a tax system that benefits me the most.
 
The biggest predictor of the wealth of a person is the wealth of the family he/she grew up in. Progressive taxes try to level that playing field out so those who start low can try to move up -- i.e., a meritocracy vs. an aristocracy.
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1236234515][quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them...</blockquote>


Your selfishness (as you said) is not reflected in everyone else. I make decent money and I am not wanting tax breaks. I do not want a tax system that benefits me the most.</blockquote>


The best way we can get a collective representation of whats best on the macro level is for everyone to act selfish. Atleast, thats how I rationalize my selfishness.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1236232019]bv - I honestly think that this is the biggest problem with our current society. People are selfish and always think of what will feel best immediately as opposed to doing what is right.







Even in this forum I constantly read someone's opinion on what the solution is based on what will work best. It does not seem to occur to anybody that it may be wrong for the government to expropriate someone else's productivity, (life). If they think it is a good cause then it is ok to take someone else's money, tax, in order to fulfill their grand wishes.







I do not think the way I do because it is what is best for me. I have thought and have determined what I think to be what is right and what is wrong. I have determined that very little of right and wrong is relative to one's circumstance. Some poor people do not steal no matter how hungary they are. Some rich people do steal no matter how much they do have. Circumstances do not determine character. I have made bad and selfish decisions when I could have afforded to be good and generous. And I have been good and generous when it was costly. You?</blockquote>


I agree with you in regards that I should keep what I make. However, a law isn't stealing. Let me ask you. When you were 18, I'm sure your tax bracket wasn't around 35% because neither was mine. Why didn't you complain to the government and demand you get taxed at 35%+ like the rich?



Hey I ride the train to work. I pay 238 bucks for a monthly pass, while the senior citizen pays 112 a month. Is he stealing? Why do my taxes have to subsidize his monthly pass? It's the law, whether I agree with it or not. Therefore it isn't stealing. If a student pays a smaller air-fare than I do, is he stealing?



I just did my taxes earlier today. I will pay 34.2% after it's all said and done. If you're paying 34.19% or less, you're stealing from me.



For the record, the only benefits I received was paying a smaller percentage in taxes compared to those that made more. I also received a 2,500 dollar pell grant for one year when Clinton was in. Once Bush got in, that was taken away. So my benefits from the government weren't substantial. However, I do know if I got taxed at 35% like I do today, I wouldn't have advanced as quickly.



Maybe I didn't make my point very clear. I'm not that great with words.



What makes me sick is that people get tax breaks, food stamps, welfare and won't do anything to add value to the system. The dead-beats.

I have zero problem for the lower and middle class to pay less in taxes if they work hard and advance to a greater way of life. But it really isn't about the taxes anyway. If you are not motivated and do not work hard, you won't advance regardless of the tax system.



I'm not saying it's fair because it isn't. But nobody is forcing the poor to pay less in taxes. You can say that the government is stealing in that case, but you can't say that poor are stealing.
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1236234515][quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them...</blockquote>


Your selfishness (as you said) is not reflected in everyone else. I make decent money and I am not wanting tax breaks. I do not want a tax system that benefits me the most.</blockquote>


Once again how is it selfish? When you made a couple of peanuts at age 16 did you complain to the government that you are paying too little taxes?
 
[quote author="upperlowerclass" date=1236235335][quote author="T!m" date=1236234515][quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them...</blockquote>


Your selfishness (as you said) is not reflected in everyone else. I make decent money and I am not wanting tax breaks. I do not want a tax system that benefits me the most.</blockquote>


The best way we can get a collective representation of what's best on the macro level is for everyone to act selfish.</blockquote>


I don't believe that.
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1236234918]The biggest predictor of the wealth of a person is the wealth of the family he/she grew up in. Progressive taxes try to level that playing field out so those who start low can try to move up -- i.e., a meritocracy vs. an aristocracy.</blockquote>


Correct. That was my earlier point. Only way I will side with a rich person complaining about high taxes is if they created wealth on their own.

If in anyway you received an advantge that someone born in a poor family didn't have, you have no right to complain. You do have a right to complain about the lazy bum sitting around collecting food stamps though.



If I was given 50K to start investing, instead of the puny 3K I started with, I would be a multi millionare now. It's ok though, it will just take me longer to get there.

Some have their rich daddy help them, but some have to get the help from the government since their daddy isn't rich. There is no differnce between the two, handouts are handouts.



Not sure if i'm making my point clear. Sigh...I hate explaining things over the internet or typing...
 
[quote author="T!m" date=1236236208][quote author="upperlowerclass" date=1236235335][quote author="T!m" date=1236234515][quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236213749]One is always for or against a current tax system based on their own financial situation. Everybody favors a tax system that favors them...</blockquote>


Your selfishness (as you said) is not reflected in everyone else. I make decent money and I am not wanting tax breaks. I do not want a tax system that benefits me the most.</blockquote>


The best way we can get a collective representation of what's best on the macro level is for everyone to act selfish.</blockquote>


I don't believe that.</blockquote>


Because it sounds like someone didn't quite understand "The Wealth of Nations".
 
[quote author="lendingmaestro" date=1236228612]abolish income tax. institute sales taxes</blockquote>


Oh God PLEASE no. That rolls out of your mouth so easy unless your the poor business

that suddenly has your bank account attached to the TAX SYSTEM.



You want to destroy this country. Try that experiment. It will NEVER work.
 
Nobody still has the most important part of this story. I'll give a clue -



Before the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?



After the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1236245256]Nobody still has the most important part of this story. I'll give a clue -



Before the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?



After the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?</blockquote>


<a href="http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp">Snopes?</a>
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1236245772]BV, looks like you're fine with the tax system, but you are not with how the government is using your taxes.</blockquote>


I'm not ok with my dollars going to the poor so they can sit on their couch doing nothing. I'm ok with my tax dollars going to that young boy or girl who weren't fortunate enough to grow up in a rich family, but are determined and motivated to become something great one day. You will never eliminate dead beats, but your hope is that the other side outweights it. Unfortunately, lately I don't think that is the case. Seems like there are more dead beats then ever before.



Thats what I'm trying to say in some form or another.
 
While the poorest have the most to gain, they shouldn't be drinking anyway. Get a job freeloaders!



Who has the most to lose from the tax cut: The Rich Guy, obv! How is that possible?!?!?!!!



Ask him if it was worth his trouble to get his ass beat for a stinking $11 discount he seemed to be perfectly content to pay. If he wasn't getting some sort of value for overpaying for beer, he'd just stop showing up.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1236245256]Nobody still has the most important part of this story. I'll give a clue -



Before the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?



After the cut:



Who has the most to gain?

Who has the most to lose?</blockquote>


Who has the most to lose...in both cases...The Bartender!
 
[quote author="BlackVault CM" date=1236247624][quote author="Roo" date=1236245772]BV, looks like you're fine with the tax system, but you are not with how the government is using your taxes.</blockquote>


I'm not ok with my dollars going to the poor so they can sit on their couch doing nothing. I'm ok with my tax dollars going to that young boy or girl who weren't fortunate enough to grow up in a rich family, but are determined and motivated to become something great one day. You will never eliminate dead beats, but your hope is that the other side outweights it. Unfortunately, lately I don't think that is the case. Seems like there are more dead beats then ever before.



Thats what I'm trying to say in some form or another.</blockquote>


i get what you're saying. the progressive tax system doesn't bother me either... so long as you get rid of all the entitlements, gub'mint cheese, and useless subsidies. in other words, i'm ok if you take my money. just don't WASTE it, then ask me for MORE. the sad thing is i have no problem with the have's helping the have-not's. it's more that i no longer TRUST the money will be used as intended.



government is like a bad wife who was supposed to buy groceries to feed your family and instead comes home from south coast with a new prada bag. did i mention she also promised the dior, LV, bottega venetta, and gucci stores she would buy any excess handbags they didn't manage to sell?
 
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