Who buys American Cars? $25 Billion idea

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wendyinoc_IHB

New member
Instead of begging for money they should put out some pro american commercials. However, they do't make good cars. The problem is simple foreign cars will survive and american will not. Detroit is to far gone at this point. Any thoughts? Should we save them?
 
If the CEO's are going to be ridiculous and fly to the hearings <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html">via private jet</a>, I really don't understand how they can whine to the government about how badly they're doing financially. They want $25 billion and will use it responsibly? Somehow I see the CEO's and higher-level executives lining their pockets while widespread layoffs will affect the workers.



If the companies fail, too bad. There are other car companies based outside the US that have made and are making better products. US automakers have made crap for a long time.
 
IMO, we will help the automakers restructure and probably consolidate. Part of the deal will be the government taking over the pension obligations and health insurance costs. These companies simply cannot support the weight of the old UAW contracts they have.



Oh yea, they have to stop making crappy cars too...
 
I pray each night that the Big 3 disappear. They are garbage and I don't want to see them around. They had their chance.
 
So, let me get this straight...



I can run my huge business with reckless abandon during the good times, promise the world to the unions, pocket the profits from HUGE SUV sales, and as soon as things get tough, just throw my hands in the air and say GIMME GIMME GIMME!?!



Is this really behavior we should REWARD?
 
It is amazing how long union concessions can remain a problem. Much of GM's trouble with healthcare cost is from labor agreements made 15+ years ago.



Their problems are aggravated by two things: 1. Healthcare costs which continued to rise faster than the rate of inflation, company profits, or the expected rate of healthcare inflation. 2. Shrinking GM revenues. A shrinking firm has trouble paying an unexpectedly growing liability, even if the firm is profitable.



This does seem to be a good candidate for bankruptcy reorg.
 
I lost faith in GM after they did this to the EV1:



<img src="http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/07/07/014017.1-lg.jpg" alt="" />
 
I'm watching the head of the UAW speaking on CNBC now. Man, I just want to punch the dude in the mouth. He's trying to scare the government into providing a bridge loan. Yeah, whatever buddy...that loan will be worthless when the big 3 file for BK in a few months anyhow. He's talking about how local gov't have subsidized the foreign car markers. Well, your workers have been subsidized by the big 3 for too damn long. It's time for chapter to break these stupid union contracts.
 
[quote author="momopi" date=1227229394]I lost faith in GM after they did this to the EV1:



I still see the charging stations at Costco for the EV1.

Another small fact. The Nickel Hydride Battery technology was bought up

by the oil companies. The only reason we have some Electric Cars now is

the fact the Lithium Battery Technology has come from Cell Phones and Laptops.



The Big 3 and the Oil companies have been doing all they could to keep

from making electric cars. Reason ? All the profit from fuel and oil

and filter changes is gone. Thats bad for business. Only need to Rotate

the tires on an Electric Car.



Cant wait till Gas is under a Dollar a Gallon and the Saudi Arabian`s

are eating crow. The big 3 are dinosaurs and are victims of evolution.

Even if we throw Billions at them they will FAIL.
 
I think the government should bailout the big 3 and then break them apart. Consolidation creates the very "too big too fail" problem that got the taxpayer into this mess. Why should GM own 17 trillion brands. . .Chevy and Hummer should be separate companies and if Hummer does not do well, bye bye.
 
I don't think the Big Three build very good products and their legacy structure puts them at a cost disadvantage to their competitors. I also hate the idea of rewarding bad behavior, whether it be over leveraged homeowners or fat cat Wall Street types or dumb ass Big Three executives. America is turning a bad version of a socialist country--throwing away the money of hard working tax payers.



BUT...I also do have sympathy for the autoworkers and their 2-3 million related jobs. In this delicate economy we can't afford to worsen the situation. If the federal government does need to spend $25B why not let the companies go into BK and restructure their debt and union contracts. Also use government money for job retraining and stabilizing the pension/health care funds. Don't give the money to the executives which will waste it on the same poor quality products and cost structures that got us into this mess. Give it directly to the workers and help them find new work.



If we must give the Big 3 money then they better fire ALL the top execs and board of directors and let the folks at Toyota & Honda etc... run the new company. If your going to use the tax payers money you better be willing to sacrifice and NOT do business the same way ever again.
 
[quote author="wendyinoc" date=1227182479]Instead of begging for money they should put out some pro american commercials. However, they do't make good cars. The problem is simple foreign cars will survive and american will not. Detroit is to far gone at this point. Any thoughts? Should we save them?</blockquote>


I never have owned a foreign car for the 20 plus years i have been driving and all the cars i have owned (Mustangs) have always been rock solid reliable. I have a 4 year old Escalade that has over 60k on the clock and has been a dream to drive and have had no problems. Yes we should save them. But i think they should go into BK as to wipe the UAW and other leaches off their backs and have them fight on a more even playing field. Some foreign car makers have the luxury of their governments paying health insurance and other subsidies that the big 3 has to pay itself.
 
[quote author="IACRenter" date=1227253788]I don't think the Big Three build very good products and their legacy structure puts them at a cost disadvantage to their competitors. I also hate the idea of rewarding bad behavior, whether it be over leveraged homeowners or fat cat Wall Street types or dumb ass Big Three executives. America is turning a bad version of a socialist country--throwing away the money of hard working tax payers.



BUT...I also do have sympathy for the autoworkers and their 2-3 million related jobs. In this delicate economy we can't afford to worsen the situation. If the federal government does need to spend $25B why not let the companies go into BK and restructure their debt and union contracts. Also use government money for job retraining and stabilizing the pension/health care funds. Don't give the money to the executives which will waste it on the same poor quality products and cost structures that got us into this mess. Give it directly to the workers and help them find new work.



If we must give the Big 3 money then they better fire ALL the top execs and board of directors and let the folks at Toyota & Honda etc... run the new company. If your going to use the tax payers money you better be willing to sacrifice and NOT do business the same way ever again.</blockquote>


Give money to workers? The big 3 screwed up by doing just that. I'm not giving a penny of my tax dollars to another autoworker making 75 an hour already. They aren't even working...the big three are paying them to play cross-word puzzles. The big 3 are going down because of the workers and the fact they make worse cars than Honda and Toyota.
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1227411980][quote author="IACRenter" date=1227253788]I don't think the Big Three build very good products and their legacy structure puts them at a cost disadvantage to their competitors. I also hate the idea of rewarding bad behavior, whether it be over leveraged homeowners or fat cat Wall Street types or dumb ass Big Three executives. America is turning a bad version of a socialist country--throwing away the money of hard working tax payers.



BUT...I also do have sympathy for the autoworkers and their 2-3 million related jobs. In this delicate economy we can't afford to worsen the situation. If the federal government does need to spend $25B why not let the companies go into BK and restructure their debt and union contracts. Also use government money for job retraining and stabilizing the pension/health care funds. Don't give the money to the executives which will waste it on the same poor quality products and cost structures that got us into this mess. Give it directly to the workers and help them find new work.



If we must give the Big 3 money then they better fire ALL the top execs and board of directors and let the folks at Toyota & Honda etc... run the new company. If your going to use the tax payers money you better be willing to sacrifice and NOT do business the same way ever again.</blockquote>


Give money to workers? The big 3 screwed up by doing just that. I'm not giving a penny of my tax dollars to another autoworker making 75 an hour already. They aren't even working...the big three are paying them to play cross-word puzzles. The big 3 are going down because of the workers and the fact they make worse cars than Honda and Toyota.</blockquote>


I would prefer the Big 3 go BK 1st and let them restructure their contracts with unions and suppliers. But sadly it seems Congress is in such a giving mood lately and insistent on burning through our tax dollars. Why let the money go to waste building the same widgets that no one wants to buy. Invest in America's human capital and help retrain these workers so they can do things more useful for the country.



Another idea I saw on an autoblog was instead of using tax dollars to fund a Big 3 bailout, how about force the big oil companies to fund it. They made grotesque profit margins when oil was $150 a barrel and can afford to help out a little.
 
IAC, they have already been cutting their 1st and 2nd Tier Suppliers to the Bone...



The upper echelon of the Big 3 have long had the attitude of "If we can cut costs just to the point where our Suppliers can barely stay in Business there will be more for us to live extravagantly"



Plus it looks good too, it's looks like they have been trying to "Cut costs"...



GM's problems go waaaaaaaaaaay deeper than anyone realizes.
 
Great article regarding the U.S. auto industry and why they are where they are. Puts blame on both management and workers.



<a href="http://www.cnbc.com/id/27892525">http://www.cnbc.com/id/27892525</a>



"It has been proven that the only sure thing in long-term investing is diversification, a concept the Detroit 3 have yet to catch onto, even though a company like GM has 8 brands. There is no diversification between a GMC Envoy and a Chevy Trailblazer, or a GMC Sierra and a Chevy Silverado. The Detroit 3 have failed to see the need to right size their own operations. They work off of a business model where they have to sell more and more vehicles in order to cover their overhead structure due to their previously negotiated contracts. Big problem--sales volumes aren't coming back, and they're losing more of their own market share."



"There is a sense of entitlement that resonates within the auto industry, in which a lot of people feel they are owed all of these luxurious benefits, and nothing can, or should, be taken away. The UAW contract is the most lucrative deal in America, one where a worker who is laid off retains 90% to 95% of his or her pay. Name another industry that has such rights? When customers cut back on production at my facility, and I lay off workers, those workers have to file for unemployment benefits which are usually much less than what they were previously paid."



"One of the new great divides I see developing in this new crisis is the gap between mid- and high-level managers and the executive level management. Just recently, due to the crisis, a company laid off all salaried employees who had exhausted their allotted vacation time. Although we are in unprecedented times, I saw this as a horrible method of trying to save costs. These are typically the employees working beyond standard requirements in order to propel the company forward, or at least keep it on pace. The company loses valuable assets this way."
 
[quote author="wendyinoc" date=1227182479]Instead of begging for money they should put out some pro american commercials. However, they do't make good cars. The problem is simple foreign cars will survive and american will not. Detroit is to far gone at this point. Any thoughts? Should we save them?</blockquote>


The United States has a strong, dynamic, profitable car industry. It's just not in Detroit, and it's not run by Americans. I bet Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes would love to buy up Big 3 assets on the cheap and hire their ex-employees and expand production here. Let the people who seem to know what they're doing pick up the pieces.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1227185595]IMO, we will help the automakers restructure and probably consolidate. Part of the deal will be the government taking over the pension obligations and health insurance costs. These companies simply cannot support the weight of the old UAW contracts they have.



Oh yea, they have to stop making crappy cars too...</blockquote>


I just saw this on MSN:



<a href="http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/up-next-a-huge-pension-bailout.aspx">Coming up: A huge pension bailout?</a>
 
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