Global Markets Plunging

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<p>I went online tonight to see how the world markets did on Monday and it didn't surprise me they were down (considering investors being pessimistic towards the President's announcement of a future economic stimulus package being worked on) but i was even more shocked to see the Asian markets plunging on Tuesday morning trading. The Hang Seng is down 7.69% as I type which would be equivalent to over a 900 point drop in the Dow Jones (this is after the Hang Seng was already down over 5% on Monday).</p>

<p>It will be interesting tomorrow when the U.S. Markets open. Money.cnn.com is predicting a 4% drop at Tuesday's opening by looking at the future contracts activity. </p>
 
This may be panic selling by the general public at the conclusion of a major decline caused by professional selling. If the markets do very poorly tomorrow, I would not be surprised to see a bounce back up to technical resistance levels. Tomorrow, or perhaps later this week, may turn out to be a great time to buy for trading a short-term move.
 
Not exactly, but the global markets are defintely intertwined. I have always thought that the conspiracy theorists thoughts on the PPT were conspiracy wacko stuff, but seeing US market futures down only 4% when the global markets are down 7% to 15% is giving me pause. It will be fascinating to see how US markets actually open. Will they open in tandem with the futures or will they have a life of their own?
 
Given how oversold the US Markets are right now, how far did you expect them to drop?





I wouldn't be surprised to see a massive gap down in the morning, but a recovery before the close of the market. And if that doesn't happen tomorrow, then I would be shocked if there isn't a rally on Wednesday.
 
Heck WINEX, I did not expect them to drop this far, this fast. I am expecting a sucker's rally, but who knows. This thing has legs. It is possible it may be something our generation has never experienced.
 
Interesting find on this subject on youtube - Why the US Market will crash tomorrow


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWyygiyPbdA">www.youtube.com/watch</a>
 
The VIX just started getting jumpy last Thursday. I expect it to be real jumpy in the morning.





Also, just for the sake of clarity, as you know I subscribe to Fleckensteincapital.com too. I am anything but a bull. I believe that we are headed towards a historic period in our economic history because of the housing mess. I do expect the problems that the bond insurers are having (MBI and ABK) to cause banks to collapse. Things are going to get really ugly.





But I think we are in for a pretty dramatic rally very shortly.
 
<p>I think a lot of those asain markets are overbought and due for a correction. We catch a cold and they get penunomia. We're their market.</p>

<p>And to think - we're not even in a recession yet. Don't start about the state of the economy. There are some rules on what constitutes two quarters of negative growth, and we haven't had one yet. We will.</p>
 
No_Vaseline I agree, the PSE - Philippine Stock Exchange went up like 40%+ in 2006 and last year I think it was up huge 20%+...doesn't surprise me.





Winex, are you doing anything to take advantage of the volatility like buying VIX calls or doing Bearish Call Spreads on SPX??
 
I just use the VIX as an indicator of fear. Panic is setting in, and that creates opportunity. But I plan on playing that opportunity through call options in common stock, and in the indexes.
 
My 2 cents on the markets: Sure, the violent moves in the short term are the results collective sentiments and trading activities, nothing more. It's easy to call them over reactions. However, whenever market swings get this violent with no apparent catalyst or obvious reason ("fear of the US is entering a recession" is not a catalyst), it usually means something very fundamental is unfolding, and great wisdom is embedded in the mass psychologies (consciously for pros, subconsiously for joes).



Many would argue that markets are fundamentally sound, valuations are low based on the low interest rate environment, recession or not, since a few quarters of no growth or decline in earnings matters very little in a long term economic valuation model. They've also been arguing for over a decade that capital gains/retained earnings are far superior than earnings distribution/dividends, because of tax efficiency. Corporate executives gladly played along.



Is it really all good? As boomers retire, they go from accumulators to liquidators of equities. Many think they have saved and invested in a portfolio of decent size, until they actually have to live off the cash flows generated by it. It is throwing off about 1.8% yield(S&P500 dividend) only, and going lower (financials were the back bones of dividend yields, but are dramatically cutting them now). An equity portfolio of $1.5 million give them roughly the same income as someone below the national poverty line. Almost all boomers must systematically sell their holdings to fund their livelihoods post retirement.



A few questions to ask:

If an investment is of great value, shouldn't the return on investment alone justify its merit?

What would you call an investment, if the end game is count on someone paying a higher price than you did?

In the foreseeable future, the market participants will be made up by an increasing number of sellers and a decreasing number of buyers, What would this do to the markets? (think Japan)

The greatest leverage bet, yen carried trade is unwinding as we speak. Marginally higher returns from the cream of the "crap", supposedly safe and high grade CDOs, SIVs have gone bust. The Fed will cut rates further (maybe an inter-meeting cut on Tue./Wed.), while Japanese inflation and more importantly, inflation expectations are at multi year high. What is a carried trader to do, other than to unwind? Who else will come in and fill the $trillion dollar shoes of driving equities and other asset markets' values higher?



If the earnings are real, I agree that 15-16 P/E is cheap, if they are real, S&P 500 should have no problem paying 5-6% dividend yield if and when that is indeed what the majority of retiring shareholders wanted. I think the earnings are as real as what was once reported by the likes of Citi, Wamu, Countryfried and New Century.
 
<p>Wow, it looks like the mantra "If you can't sell whatcha wanna sell, sell whatcha can sell!" is being practice in full force, probably by leveraged professionals, levered, but still professionals.</p>

<p>Although after this selling wave has exhausted itself, the market is likely to have a counter rally, but sellers will steadily come in and markets will trend lower for a long time until we find a fundamental bottom. </p>

<p>My guess the bottom will be when the market trades at a valuation of 15-16 times Price/Cash Flow from Operations. About 6.5% real earnings yield seem reasonable, given a 3+% treasury yield and a 3+% risk premium. </p>
 
<p>As a boomer, born July 1946, I think the bottom line is the boomers are not going to retire when everybody thinks we are going to. We won't be able to and since we like to spend money and live rich, we won't want to.</p>

<p>I should get to work, but what I really want to do is whatch the mkts all day long.</p>
 
Yeah, it's hard to get work done with crises like this unfolding. Worst economic crisis I can recall now, back into the 70's. The 1987 drop was worse in the stock market but it wasn't accompanied by big trouble in mortgage and currency markets. The early '80s were bad economically, but they didn't have any crisis moments like this.



I don't expect the stock market to drop much more because PE's are already pretty reasonable. Yeah, I know earnings can drop but I think apart from financials most top companies have good business models.
 
<p><em>"I don't expect the stock market to drop much more because PE's are already pretty reasonable. Yeah, I know earnings can drop but I think apart from financials most top companies have good business models. "</em></p>

<p>Yeah, they are carrying trillions of dollars of worthless credit default swaps on their books as marked to fantasy assets.</p>
 
<p>Not picking on the boomer generation, I was only speaking in terms of general direction of the trend. Born in 1969, I am almost a young boomer.</p>

<p>Every human being has a finite number of productive years. One could choose to put off retirement, others in various occupations don't have that luxury of choice. Still, in the end, laws of mother nature prevail, and no one gets to choose if one gets old enough. The trend will be more people entering retirement and thus liquidating.</p>

<p>BTW, from across the Pacific, looks like my wild guess of a inter-meeting Fed rate cut was on the mark!</p>
 
Just off the top of my head, I think the financials account for over half of the S&P500 earnings. The GE, IBM of the world all have large financing arms.
 
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