Foreclosures add to tight rental market

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To read the full story, please click here;

http://www.mercurynews.com/realestatenews/ci_10763983





Rising rent coupled with investors purchasing foreclosed homes to use as rental properties has made it more difficult for many renters to find affordable rental housing.



MAKING SENSE OF THE STORY FOR CONSUMERS



? The demand for rental housing is increasing as more former home owners, whose homes were foreclosed upon, enter the rental market. This is driving up rental prices and making it more difficult for renters to find affordable housing. Statewide rent in complexes of 100 units or more averaged $1,449 in the second quarter, a year-over-year increase of 4.4 percent, according to RealFacts, a Novato, Calif.-based research firm.



? More investors than in previous years are purchasing foreclosed houses as investment properties and using them as rentals, rather than primary residences. This has negatively impacted traditional rental communities, as demonstrated by the slight decrease in occupancy rates. Apartment complexes were 95.6 percent occupied in the third quarter, a slight decrease from 96.7 percent a year ago.



? It is recommended that homeowners who have a foreclosure on their credit record continue to pay their other financial obligations and not accumulate more debt, which could adversely affect their ability to qualify for rental housing. Generally, landlords will consider renting to a tenant with a previous foreclosure on their credit record, if the renter otherwise has good credit and can explain the circumstances that led to the foreclosure.





Sign up for a free account, access bank-owned property listings www.teamwork.listingbook.com



12% to 18% Annual Rate of Return, download a sample investment analysis and cash flow projection

http://teamworkhomes.com/crm/sample/invt_rental1.pdf



(Note: Investment is not for everyone. You don't have to agree with the underlying investment assumptions; I only respond to sincere and respectful discussions.)
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224919470]



12% to 18% Annual Rate of Return, download a sample investment analysis and cash flow projection




You don't have to agree with the underlying investment assumptions; I only respond to sincere and respectful discussions.)</blockquote>


What a load of horse manure. We don't have to agree with the underlying assumptions?



Have you no shame? You remind me of Bagdad Bob.



Deuce, now do you see why we have such a low opinion of most re agents?
 
I thought you only looked at the local market? So, why are you posting an article about the rental market that is not local?



As for your rental analysis, it would be a good idea to use more realistic and actual numbers from a purchase in OC, maybe even Irvine. Then, you should change your appreciation rates to -2%, 0%, and 4% to give a more realistic idea of investment returns. You should know, that real estate doesn't always go up.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1224920075]I thought you only looked at the local market? So, why are you posting an article about the rental market that is not local?



As for your rental analysis, it would be a good idea to use more realistic and actual numbers from a purchase in OC, maybe even Irvine. Then, you should change your appreciation rates to -2%, 0%, and 4% to give a more realistic idea of investment returns. You should know, that real estate doesn't always go up.</blockquote>


Tustin, Mission Viejo and Lake Forest are local markets for many OC investors. A long term investor will look at average 7 to 10 years or longer investment horizons. Again, I had warned that you don't have to agree with the underlying assumptions. With so many uncertainties, you can always pick on something that you don't like. This sample will be showned only for demonstration purpose, just in case someone want to undertand how cap rate works, etc.
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224920583][quote author="graphrix" date=1224920075]I thought you only looked at the local market? So, why are you posting an article about the rental market that is not local?



As for your rental analysis, it would be a good idea to use more realistic and actual numbers from a purchase in OC, maybe even Irvine. Then, you should change your appreciation rates to -2%, 0%, and 4% to give a more realistic idea of investment returns. You should know, that real estate doesn't always go up.</blockquote>


Tustin, Mission Viejo and Lake Forest are local markets for many OC investors. A long term investor will look at average 7 to 10 years or longer investment horizons. Again, I had warned that you don't have to agree with the underlying assumptions. With so many uncertainties, you can always pick on something that you don't like. This sample will be showned only for demonstration purpose, just in case someone want to undertand how cap rate works, etc.</blockquote>


Yeah... because we aren't smart enough to understand how a cap rate works. So why don't you show an example with an Irvine property with my assumptions? Maybe just use 0%, 2%, and 4%. If you want to have credibility, then you need to earn it.
 
"Yeah... because we aren't smart enough to understand how a cap rate works. So why don't you show an example with an Irvine property with my assumptions? Maybe just use 0%, 2%, and 4%. If you want to have credibility, then you need to earn it."



Again, you are making assumptions out of my statement. Just a few minutes ago, I thought you were smart. Now I have a second thought. What else do you do to make a living, in addition to looking for fights on this board? With your vigor and engergy, you will make a perfect bouncer. That is a compliment.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1224920801][quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224920583][quote author="graphrix" date=1224920075]I thought you only looked at the local market? So, why are you posting an article about the rental market that is not local?



As for your rental analysis, it would be a good idea to use more realistic and actual numbers from a purchase in OC, maybe even Irvine. Then, you should change your appreciation rates to -2%, 0%, and 4% to give a more realistic idea of investment returns. You should know, that real estate doesn't always go up.</blockquote>


Tustin, Mission Viejo and Lake Forest are local markets for many OC investors. A long term investor will look at average 7 to 10 years or longer investment horizons. Again, I had warned that you don't have to agree with the underlying assumptions. With so many uncertainties, you can always pick on something that you don't like. This sample will be showned only for demonstration purpose, just in case someone want to undertand how cap rate works, etc.</blockquote>


Yeah... because we aren't smart enough to understand how a cap rate works. So why don't you show an example with an Irvine property with my assumptions? Maybe just use 0%, 2%, and 4%. If you want to have credibility, then you need to earn it.</blockquote>


You guys are making me long for the politics thread.



ID - You've obviously angered the bear. Might I suggest throwing one of these in the other side of his cage to buy yourself some time... It's not as good as crack-brownies, but well, what is?

<img src="http://www.cakeworkscentral.com/images/scrapbook/nemocake.jpg" alt="" />



I think that given some time to explain your position (and listen to responses), you will find some very informed deciders here. Spending time/energy here has been a good experience for me by forcing me to become a better (more aware) broker, and allowing access to direct real-time feedback from people very interested in real estate, locally and abroad. I think given the chance, you will find it equally informative.



The issue that seems to be divisive at this point is not that you are being bullish, but moreso that it is unclear what your premise is. For example, in this thread:



Is it your argument that rents locally are increasing?

If so, what data are provided as support?



If you can give this kind of info from direct experience instead of cut/paste MSM pieces, I think you will find a more broadly welcoming audience here. In all sincerity, I hope you are able to redeem yourself a bit and add to the knowledge base here. Good luck.
 
ID, it is not your viewpoint that folks object to. You may be surprised at how many posters have the same viewpoint, but also have a command of the facts. It seems you are just as guilty of judging anyone who does not agree with you. Westpark-owner does not have buyers remorse and Graphrix does not see the glass as half full and people who disagree with you do not have less knowledge of Irvine real estate than you. Before you posted the article on the 65% gain is sales, did you take the time to read the previous posts on the subject? Did you read other articles on the gain? I am not so sure you realize that many of the posters here read it and they read an awful lot. In time you may realize that Graphrix is not making assumptions, he is regurgitating facts and information.
 
We had some discussion about rents in other threads. I had expected rents to spike briefly as the people leaving their foreclosed properties moved into a rental. This would be a temporary phenomenon as the foreclosure would be returned to the market in due time. Rents really didn't change much over the last year, and now they are beginning to drop.



There are not properties in Irvine with cap rates under 6%. With cap rates that low, you can't even put debt on the property to try to increase your return. The only reason "investors" might do this is to bet on future appreciation. Bad bet.





I was going to start a thread topic on declining rents, but I think I will just hijack this one...



I viewed <a href="http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/apa/890913028.html">this University Park home</a> in January of 2007 when it was available for rent for $2,800. Now it is for rent for $2,350.



Check out this <a href="http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/apa/890919420.html">fully updated 3/2 in Deerfield for $2,000</a>. I almost went to look at this one. It certainly appears to be a good deal.



I did go view a property in Northwood last weekend, <a href="http://firstteam.com/propertydetail.aspx?id=143639739&db=1&MLS=S544513&vt=F&oh=F&video=F&audio=F&Page=BL&e=F&iLookup_no=2730733&iPocket_id=0&iTotalRows=113&iPropRowNo=84">206 Garden Gate</a>. When I spoke to the realtor, she told me the property was last rented for $2,400, but now they have had to lower the rent to $1,950 because it is becoming difficult to find tenants. The property was too small for us, but I was really tempted by the discount. As we were leaving, another prospective tenant showed up.



Rents are driven by incomes and migration patterns. Rents declined during the early 90s because there was widespread unemployment and out-migration from California. The same is happening again. What has been surprising to me is how much rents have fallen just recently. I have been watching the rental market off and on for months, but it is just since the stock market started to drop over the last couple of months that I started noticing real discounting going on in the rental market. I may look to move again in December. Landlords will be very desperate, and there is usually an abundance of properties available.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224923039]We had some discussion about rents in other threads. I had expected rents to spike briefly as the people leaving their foreclosed properties moved into a rental. This would be a temporary phenomenon as the foreclosure would be returned to the market in due time. Rents really didn't change much over the last year, and now they are beginning to drop.



There are not properties in Irvine with cap rates under 6%. With cap rates that low, you can't even put debt on the property to try to increase your return. The only reason "investors" might do this is to bet on future appreciation. Bad bet.





I was going to start a thread topic on declining rents, but I think I will just hijack this one...



I viewed <a href="http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/apa/890913028.html">this University Park home</a> in January of 2007 when it was available for rent for $2,800. Now it is for rent for $2,350.



Check out this <a href="http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/apa/890919420.html">fully updated 3/2 in Deerfield for $2,000</a>. I almost went to look at this one. It certainly appears to be a good deal.



I did go view a property in Northwood last weekend, <a href="http://firstteam.com/propertydetail.aspx?id=143639739&db=1&MLS=S544513&vt=F&oh=F&video=F&audio=F&Page=BL&e=F&iLookup_no=2730733&iPocket_id=0&iTotalRows=113&iPropRowNo=84">206 Garden Gate</a>. When I spoke to the realtor, she told me the property was last rented for $2,400, but now they have had to lower the rent to $1,950 because it is becoming difficult to find tenants. The property was too small for us, but I was really tempted by the discount. As we were leaving, another prospective tenant showed up.



Rents are driven by incomes and migration patterns. Rents declined during the early 90s because there was widespread unemployment and out-migration from California. The same is happening again. What has been surprising to me is how much rents have fallen just recently. I have been watching the rental market off and on for months, but it is just since the stock market started to drop over the last couple of months that I started noticing real discounting going on in the rental market. I may look to move again in December. Landlords will be very desperate, and there is usually an abundance of properties available.</blockquote>


House in my neighborhood has not been able to rent out.
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224919470]To read the full story, please click here;

http://www.mercurynews.com/realestatenews/ci_10763983





Rising rent coupled with investors purchasing foreclosed homes to use as rental properties has made it more difficult for many renters to find affordable rental housing.



MAKING SENSE OF THE STORY FOR CONSUMERS



? The demand for rental housing is increasing as more former home owners, whose homes were foreclosed upon, enter the rental market. This is driving up rental prices and making it more difficult for renters to find affordable housing. Statewide rent in complexes of 100 units or more averaged $1,449 in the second quarter, a year-over-year increase of 4.4 percent, according to RealFacts, a Novato, Calif.-based research firm.



? More investors than in previous years are purchasing foreclosed houses as investment properties and using them as rentals, rather than primary residences. This has negatively impacted traditional rental communities, as demonstrated by the slight decrease in occupancy rates. Apartment complexes were 95.6 percent occupied in the third quarter, a slight decrease from 96.7 percent a year ago.



? It is recommended that homeowners who have a foreclosure on their credit record continue to pay their other financial obligations and not accumulate more debt, which could adversely affect their ability to qualify for rental housing. Generally, landlords will consider renting to a tenant with a previous foreclosure on their credit record, if the renter otherwise has good credit and can explain the circumstances that led to the foreclosure.





Sign up for a free account, access bank-owned property listings www.teamwork.listingbook.com



12% to 18% Annual Rate of Return, download a sample investment analysis and cash flow projection

http://teamworkhomes.com/crm/sample/invt_rental1.pdf



(Note: Investment is not for everyone. You don't have to agree with the underlying investment assumptions; I only respond to sincere and respectful discussions.)</blockquote>


I actually do own a home near the heart of SV, 10 minutes from CISCO. Every year, I able to increase my rent but not this year, so forget about 12% increase. You just can't believe what you read. I also only rent out to executives who make good money.
 
Deuce, you are a riot. Hey, I'll be at the Hermosa Beach Comedy and Magic Club on 12/12. Any chance you'll be performing?



I had lunch with a buddy who owns a rental and has had a truly awful time trying to get it rented out. He dropped the price repeatedly and finally settled for a Section 8 renter @ 17% less than what his last tenant was paying. A RE bull can interpret these real-life anecdotes as single examples and not representative, but the market is not that inefficient. If you can't get even a nibble for over a month, then you're priced above market. Trades happen at the margin, and that's where you find market prices.
 
At least in my 'hood, 2008 was a year where many a flipper tried to punt by leasing their place out for their monthly carrying cost - which is often almost twice market rent. Those places sit... and sit... and sit....



I've always referred to those folks as 'airlords'. There's nothing lordly about paying property taxes with no income to write off against it.
 
[quote author="Hormiguero" date=1224929672]I've always referred to those folks as 'airlords'.</blockquote>


If you don't mind, I may use that. It's great.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224931049][quote author="Hormiguero" date=1224929672]I've always referred to those folks as 'airlords'.</blockquote>


If you don't mind, I may use that. It's great.</blockquote>
IR, how much do you think rents may decline from current levels? 5%? 10%? or more?
 
[quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1224942351][quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224931049][quote author="Hormiguero" date=1224929672]I've always referred to those folks as 'airlords'.</blockquote>


If you don't mind, I may use that. It's great.</blockquote>
IR, how much do you think rents may decline from current levels? 5%? 10%? or more?</blockquote>


It is hard to say. Measuring rents has many of the same difficulties and measuring property values with the added issue of a lack of reporting. From what I have been observing, I would say <strong>rents have declined 10% in the last 2 months alone</strong>. Some of this may be seasonal as landlords who did not find a renter when school started are getting desperate, but some of this decline is undoubtedly due to the economy and out-migration.



If we do see a significant decline in rents, houses prices are really going to crater. All my projections for price declines were predicated on a relatively healthy economy and a steady increase in incomes and rents. If this recession is really bad -- which it looks like it will be -- then the fundamental valuation of houses will decline as well. This means inflated prices have even farther to fall to reach rental parity.
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1224975661]

If we do see a significant decline in rents, houses prices are really going to crater. All my projections for price declines were predicated on a relatively healthy economy and a steady increase in incomes and rents. If this recession is really bad -- which it looks like it will be -- then the fundamental valuation of houses will decline as well. This means inflated prices have even farther to fall to reach rental parity.</blockquote>


Would it be too immature to say, "I told you so"?

And to my way of thinking, if my rent stays the same for two years, which it has, and the CPI shows a gain, and other prices are rising, and my wages increase for the same work, then my rent is decreasing in real vs. nominal dollars.
 
My rents have stayed the same and in some cases have even declined. I've been telling some of the other guys it might not be a bad time to pay down debt or to just "stash the cash"....

Don't get me wrong, having a rental property is not such a bad thing, but it does require some long term thinking, planning and view. The moment you start to trying to squeeze out a little more or get greedy it will burn you.....

good luck

-bix
 
[quote author="Informed_Decisions" date=1224919470]To read the full story, please click here;

<a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/realestatenews/ci_10763983">http://www.mercurynews.com/realestatenews/ci_10763983</a>





Rising rent coupled with investors purchasing foreclosed homes to use as rental properties has made it more difficult for many renters to find affordable rental housing.



MAKING SENSE OF THE STORY FOR CONSUMERS</blockquote>


There several reasons why I think this article and the intentions of the one posting the article are misleading and excluding many important facts. As a long time and mostly respected IHBer, and someone who is a rental property owner, I feel that I owe everyone a more in depth explanation as to why that is.



First of all, this is an article from the SAN JOSE mercury news. One would think a person with knowledge of the local market would post an article from a LOCAL source with the LOCAL numbers. Say maybe an article from the <a href="http://www.ocregister.com/">ORANGE COUNTY register</a>? I dunno, but there may be a few less informed readers here that have never heard of <a href="http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/">Jon Lansner and his blog</a>. I guess if you needed a Realtroll to provide with LOCAL market data, then you might have missed <a href="http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/2008/10/16/oc-sees-smallest-rent-hikes-in-6-years/4873/">Lansner's post from the same source on the LOCAL numbers</a>. If you are an intelligent and informed IHBer, then you would have even read the post <a href="http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/2008/10/17/north-county-draws-largest-rent-hikes/4939/">that breaks down the numbers on an even more LOCAL basis</a>, that includes the Irvine numbers. Now that would be way more LOCAL than an article based on county that is nearly 500 miles from here. More on the numbers later.



There is a huge difference between San Jose and OC. Well, they both have a bunch of ugly stucco boxes built from the 50s to current with a bunch of strip malls, but there are differences. The main difference being job creation. Santa Clara/San Jose has created <a href="http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/lfmonth/sjos$pds.pdf">700 jobs, or 0.01% YOY</a>, whereas <a href="http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/lfmonth/oran$pds.pdf">OC has lost 29,600 jobs, or over -2.0% YOY</a>. You can say that the jobs lost were in the financial and RE fields, but the Professional and Business Services lost 9000 jobs, or -3.3% YOY. This is the same sector that was supposed to be the one to save OC according to UCLA, USC, and CS Fullerton forecasts. BTW, and no offense to those who actually learned something from USC, but they have been the absolute worst in forecasting. OC is at the same job level as we were in 2005, meaning three years of job growth have been wiped out, and that includes the Professional and Business Services sector at the 2005 level. Since IHBers have been accused of not being able to provide a credible analysis of supply and demand, well there you have it. People with jobs are the demand, and since they keep decreasing, then OC needs to go back to the demand levels pre-2005.



<blockquote>? The demand for rental housing is increasing as more former home owners, whose homes were foreclosed upon, enter the rental market. This is driving up rental prices and making it more difficult for renters to find affordable housing. Statewide rent in complexes of 100 units or more averaged $1,449 in the second quarter, a year-over-year increase of 4.4 percent, according to RealFacts, a Novato, Calif.-based research firm.



? More investors than in previous years are purchasing foreclosed houses as investment properties and using them as rentals, rather than primary residences. This has negatively impacted traditional rental communities, as demonstrated by the slight decrease in occupancy rates. Apartment complexes were 95.6 percent occupied in the third quarter, a slight decrease from 96.7 percent a year ago.



? It is recommended that homeowners who have a foreclosure on their credit record continue to pay their other financial obligations and not accumulate more debt, which could adversely affect their ability to qualify for rental housing. Generally, landlords will consider renting to a tenant with a previous foreclosure on their credit record, if the renter otherwise has good credit and can explain the circumstances that led to the foreclosure.</blockquote>
<em>

<a href="http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/2008/10/16/oc-sees-smallest-rent-hikes-in-6-years/4873/">Apartment tracker RealFacts reports that Orange County</a> rents at the county?s largest complexes it watches averaged $1,603 a month,<strong> up 1.8% in a year. That rate of increase was the smallest since the second quarter of 2002.</strong>



http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/files/2008/10/blog-3qrent-rf-300x284.png



RealFacts found that <a href="http://lansner.freedomblogging.com/files/2008/10/blog-3qrent-rf-300x284.png">local rents, after rising at a 4.2% rate last year, have basically stalled in 2008</a>. RealFacts tracks 489 O.C. complexes with 123,902.



A key reason that landlords get small rent increases ? other than the economy is weak ? is that apartment shoppers have plenty of choice.



In the third quarter, 5.3% of units at the largest complexes tracked by RealFacts were empty. (And that doesn?t note the huge supply of vacant homes being rented out!) While the third quarter?s 5.3% vacancy rate is actually is down slightly from earlier this year, compare it to the 4.6% rate averaged in the previous five years.



(Nationwide, RealFacts found rent averaging $1,002 a month, up $2 in three months.)

<strong>

RealFacts isn?t the only rent tracker finding this O.C. stable-rent trend. Axiometrics found big O.C. landlords getting annual rent hikes during the third quarter of just 0.2%. That placed O.C.?s third quarter at No. 60 out of 88 U.S. metropolitan areas in terms of pricing power, by Axiometrics? math.</strong></em>



So... not only are rent increases going down, but vacancy rates are up above the average for large complexes, but there are a bunch of investors buying foreclosed homes to rent out. Therefore creating more supply. Why would you want to invest in a property that will only be adding to the supply? This would make you part of the herd behavior, and make you look really dumb when you could wait for prices to drop further and rents to stabilize. It really doesn't get much simpler than that on how to time the market, and monkeys could do it if they could read beyond what is being fed to them. If you are an active IHBer, and not someone who just stops by to post biased articles to drum up business, then you would know that several IHBers are negotiating and have negotiated their lease rates down, like SoCal78 has done. You would also know that Trooper has negotiated her lease down to a killer deal with her private landlord. Mind you, you would be a private landlord/part of the herd if you were to buy now. As a landlord myself I have not raised rents in over a year and a half. Why? Because on time paying tenants are worth more than the risk of getting new tenants at a higher rate, when that rate is not likely at in this market. That, and the fact that there are way too many rentals to compete with.



Now, to debunk the fallacy that landlords are willing to rent to people with a recent foreclosure. This is such BS I could puke, but it isn't worth losing my food for. If this were such a "hot" rental market, then you would have several way more qualified tenants than someone with a foreclosure on their credit report. I mean, IHBers who have not bought a home wouldn't even have a foreclosure. So lets say I have a unit available for $2k a month and only two prospective tenants: Tenant A (TA), who has a 540 FICO, because they have a recent foreclosure, a moderate debt level that has been paid on time, a debt ratio of 30% with the debt and the unit, a steady job for 4 plus years, and savings for a year of rent and estimated expenses (I have yet to see this kind of savings, but go with it. They could have saved that when they weren't paying their mortgage). Tenant B (TB) has a 740 FICO, moderate debt, a ratio of 30% if the rent were $1800, a steady job of 2 years, and savings for 6 months of rent plus expenses.



I am going to offer TA $2000 rent, but with 1 year of advanced rent due to their credit report. TA counters back with 6 months advanced rent, and a nice letter why they were foreclosed on, with a letter where they promise they have seen the light, read IHB, believe IR is the man, makes fun of skek, Ipo, and IR2, and have invested in the total opposite way of Panda.



TB offers $1800 a month with first and last, citing that is well within in their budget and that their impeccable credit report shows how they have been and will be consistent in paying their bills including the $1800 a month rent.



Which tenant will I choose? Well... the likelihood of TB paying me $21,600 over a year is a lot less riskier than TA paying me $12k over 6 months, only to not make the 7th month payment. Even if it only takes 60 days to find a new tenant after TA at the same $2k rental amount, I wouldn't have made as much from TB ($21,600) if I were greedy with TA ($20,000). Rents do not always go up, increasing vacancies suck, and as can been seen here and other threads of IHB, there is no shortage of rentals or that pesky thing called supply.





<blockquote>Sign up for a free account, access bank-owned property listings www.teamwork.listingbook.com



12% to 18% Annual Rate of Return, download a sample investment analysis and cash flow projection

http://teamworkhomes.com/crm/sample/invt_rental1.pdf



(Note: Investment is not for everyone. You don't have to agree with the underlying investment assumptions; I only respond to sincere and respectful discussions.)</blockquote>


Continued...
 
And... here in lies the rub. Someone who wants your business, posts once a month to drum up business, avoids answering questions, is totally and completely ignorant of the posts here outside his own, and pathetically tries to use reverse psychology that posters, like me and many others see right through, but shows 12%-18% annual return on RE. Those projections/forecasting are are way too optimistic, and every active and intelligently up to date poster knows that is true.



Who are you to believe? The once a month ignorantly arrogant posting Realtroll? Or... the IHBer/rental owner, who has been right about housing, China getting whacked, and the dollar going up? I think any active member here will know who to trust.
 
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