Co-Habitation

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roundcorners_IHB

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This thread is not meant to be confrontational. I have had some heated debates over this topic before. Before I write any further; just let me say that I have pretty much done all the above, except for buying a house period. I just want to get a general consensus of what is currently socially acceptable in the OC regarding co-habitation. If you have an opinion or argument either way, let?s hear it?



Now, as some of you know I am a conservative Christian. Now I haven?t always walked the perfect path as a Christian, no one has, but I?ve always struggled with this aspect of my walk. Not raised in the most ideal model of a functional nuclear family, I don?t really know what a normal family looks like. I?ve argued before with church friends and came to heated discussions that living together before marriage is perfectly acceptable. I?ve even shared bank accounts and bought cars together. However as I matured through the years; and as those relationships became more and more serious, I started to treat dating, courting and the issue co-habitation more significantly.



Here is my take and my best opinions for waiting till you are married to live together. I think there are certain relationships that are meant to forever be sacred. They are so life changing, brain chemistry altering and emotional vested that it is only best reserved with an official title such as marriage. When I would dabble or pretend to be married; or ?test drove? the process all that does is cheapen the authenticity of the real thing. I wanted all the enjoyments/benefits of a marriage without all the responsibility and consequences of a marriage. When things got too hot, both parties can simply walk away. There wasn?t a covenant or agreement that says; I will NEVER leave you no matter what.



Couples without the safety of that agreement will never fully be themselves. You can never fully really get to know someone completely. Most married couples can tell you that they have argue beyond the point of where most courting couples would have already given up; and they still have to come together the same house/bed afterwards.





You don?t have to live together to learn about your potential mate?s character, values, attitudes and beliefs. They can all be demonstrated in activities, situations, and conflicts. There will always be conflict in relationships. There will always be differences in opinions and arguments. The only difference is, will those differences be worked out in a household where both parties always agree to come back together or separate at the first major disagreement.
 
I am a conservative Christian who has had the opposite experience to you, RC. I started out with the very traditional evangelical church perspective, followed that faithfully, yet unsucessfully, and now, in my more mature perspective, believe that the "traditional evangelical church perspective" is flawed by years of human bias. The traditional evangelical church pattern of "holy matrimony" makes it far too easy for individuals to opt out of any meaningful emotional investment in the relationship, and far too difficult for an individual to voice any concerns about the quality of the relationship. The whole subject of "marriage" in many evangelical churches is, unfortunately, too much like Jesus' commentary on the "white washed tombs" of the Pharisees.... shining and clean on the outside, but dead on the inside.



I agree that there are relationships designed by God to be forever sacred and those relationships are life changing.



Unfortunately, I'm not as convinced that everyone gets a relationship like that, and worse, I think people (especially traditional evangelical Christians) feel the need to "manufacture" such a relationship if God hasn't provided it by a convenient time. So, twenty-something Christians get married, not so much because they feel that God has given them their "one flesh" partner, but because it's time to "settle down."



I believe that the quality of the relationship between two people is more important than what it is called. Further, I believe the Biblical "one-flesh" relationship is created by God, and is "marriage" in His eyes, no matter what it may be called on Earth. Tradition has it backwards.... marriage doesn't make people "one flesh" but the "one flesh" relationship makes it marriage.



But then, I'm happy as a heretic.
 
And on a secular but not spiritual note.... I find your poll categories interesting. What's more upsetting ...that non-married people might be sexually intimate, or that they might co-mingle their assets? Would it be ok to buy a house jointly with a platonic friend? I don't understand how the financial issues got mixed in with the living together issues.
 
[quote author="centralcoastobserver" date=1243735539]And on a secular but not spiritual note.... I find your poll categories interesting. What's more upsetting ...that non-married people might be sexually intimate, or that they might co-mingle their assets? Would it be ok to buy a house jointly with a platonic friend? I don't understand how the financial issues got mixed in with the living together issues.</blockquote>


I don't know,, this is a housing blog,, right? And this thread is under lifestyles; i'm still really trying to digest your comments... can you give situational experiential examples?
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1243752198][quote author="SoCal78" date=1243739960]Forget it.</blockquote>


My thoughts exactly.</blockquote>


choose your battles wisely...
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243730847]This thread is not meant to be confrontational. I have had some heated debates over this topic before. Before I write any further; just let me say that I have pretty much done all the above, except for buying a house period. I just want to get a general consensus of what is currently socially acceptable in the OC regarding co-habitation. If you have an opinion or argument either way, let?s hear it?



Now, as some of you know I am a conservative Christian. Now I haven?t always walked the perfect path as a Christian, no one has, but I?ve always struggled with this aspect of my walk. Not raised in the most ideal model of a functional nuclear family, I don?t really know what a normal family looks like. I?ve argued before with church friends and came to heated discussions that living together before marriage is perfectly acceptable. I?ve even shared bank accounts and bought cars together. However as I matured through the years; and as those relationships became more and more serious, I started to treat dating, courting and the issue co-habitation more significantly.



Here is my take and my best opinions for waiting till you are married to live together. I think there are certain relationships that are meant to forever be sacred. They are so life changing, brain chemistry altering and emotional vested that it is only best reserved with an official title such as marriage. When I would dabble or pretend to be married; or ?test drove? the process all that does is cheapen the authenticity of the real thing. I wanted all the enjoyments/benefits of a marriage without all the responsibility and consequences of a marriage. When things got too hot, both parties can simply walk away. There wasn?t a covenant or agreement that says; I will NEVER leave you no matter what.



Couples without the safety of that agreement will never fully be themselves. You can never fully really get to know someone completely. Most married couples can tell you that they have argue beyond the point of where most courting couples would have already given up; and they still have to come together the same house/bed afterwards.





You don?t have to live together to learn about your potential mate?s character, values, attitudes and beliefs. They can all be demonstrated in activities, situations, and conflicts. There will always be conflict in relationships. There will always be differences in opinions and arguments. The only difference is, will those differences be worked out in a household where both parties always agree to come back together or separate at the first major disagreement.</blockquote>
I have to disagree with you based upon my own personal experience. I am Catholic raised by old school Catholic European parents, although I'm not as religious as most of my family is. Anyhow, I think the says that "you don't know someone until you live with them" couldn't be anymore true. Back in my late 20s I was in a 3 year relationship and discussed the matter with my ex gf about moving in together before we even think about getting married. She agreed and me lived together for about 3 months before we realized that we just couldn't live with each other and decided to mutually end the relationship. I would have sucked if we would have gotten married and then figured out we just couldn't live together under one roof.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243730847]This thread is not meant to be confrontational. I have had some heated debates over this topic before. Before I write any further; just let me say that I have pretty much done all the above, except for buying a house period. I just want to get a general consensus of what is currently socially acceptable in the OC regarding co-habitation. If you have an opinion or argument either way, let?s hear it?



Now, as some of you know I am a conservative Christian. Now I haven?t always walked the perfect path as a Christian, no one has, but I?ve always struggled with this aspect of my walk. Not raised in the most ideal model of a functional nuclear family, I don?t really know what a normal family looks like. I?ve argued before with church friends and came to heated discussions that living together before marriage is perfectly acceptable. I?ve even shared bank accounts and bought cars together. However as I matured through the years; and as those relationships became more and more serious, I started to treat dating, courting and the issue co-habitation more significantly.



Here is my take and my best opinions for waiting till you are married to live together. I think there are certain relationships that are meant to forever be sacred. They are so life changing, brain chemistry altering and emotional vested that it is only best reserved with an official title such as marriage. When I would dabble or pretend to be married; or ?test drove? the process all that does is cheapen the authenticity of the real thing. I wanted all the enjoyments/benefits of a marriage without all the responsibility and consequences of a marriage. When things got too hot, both parties can simply walk away. There wasn?t a covenant or agreement that says; I will NEVER leave you no matter what.



Couples without the safety of that agreement will never fully be themselves. You can never fully really get to know someone completely. Most married couples can tell you that they have argue beyond the point of where most courting couples would have already given up; and they still have to come together the same house/bed afterwards.





You don?t have to live together to learn about your potential mate?s character, values, attitudes and beliefs. They can all be demonstrated in activities, situations, and conflicts. There will always be conflict in relationships. There will always be differences in opinions and arguments. The only difference is, will those differences be worked out in a household where both parties always agree to come back together or separate at the first major disagreement.</blockquote>


RoundCorners,



We all have different walks and personal experiences in our lives. I personally have been extremely conservative in the this area. I think my college pastor had the most influence in me in relationships, much more than my parents or any of my friends. I have never forgotten his message when I was a sophomore in college. He said, "if you sleep with another women who is not your wife, you have sinned against her, sinned against God, sinned against her future husband, and sinned against all of her off springs. I know this may sound a little silly, but these words were engraved in mind all thoughout my single years. For some weird reason, I never thought it was right to live with nor mess around with a woman whom i would never marry. I know there is a lot of pain when long term relationships break up and when marriages end up in a divorce, and christians are not excluded when the statistics show that 50% of all marriages end up in a divorce. One of my good christian friend in college just went through a divorce last year and this guy is the last person I can imagine who would go through a divorce. I've been trying to reach out to him, but nobody knows where he is. Having a great marriage is in not easy and you have to continue to rekindle the love and fire that you once had when you were first dating. Again, I am no expert in this area.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1243759716]A normal nuclear family looks abnormal.</blockquote>


Stat I heard just today is that 31% of kids are growing up in a house with 2 parents, a mom and a dad. I sort of assumed that meant their own two parents but I'm not sure. It would seem an awfully low percentage if it actually included step-moms/dads.
 
Funny...!!! Both CK and I took the quiz on facebook "What kind of ethnicity should you be dating.?" and both of us ended up with a result of "Asian" I can't believe that EGG!
 
Costal, thank you so much for sharing?



I think I?m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don?t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.



I?m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree?



To address your first few points? I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I?m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I?m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don?t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don?t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other?s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won?t be married today, if it weren?t for our church?



That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB? Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?



I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.



I?m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn?t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243812734]Costal, thank you so much for sharing?



I think I?m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don?t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.



I?m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree?



To address your first few points? I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I?m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I?m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don?t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don?t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other?s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won?t be married today, if it weren?t for our church?



That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB? Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?



I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.



I?m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn?t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?</blockquote>


Awesome! RC I can see that you are a humble guy who has a genuine heart to build an authentic community here. I also see that with SoCal as she is starting to set up community get togethers for this forum. I really like where this going. Keep it up guys.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243812734]I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.</blockquote>


What happened to personal accountability and effort into a relationship? I'm all for spirituality but it is no substitute of ones responsibility in how things turn out.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1243818042]I knew it was only a matter of time before the love affair between Panda and Roundcorners was going to start.</blockquote>


But... but... but... Panda is not gay.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243812734]Costal, thank you so much for sharing?



I think I?m starting to understand what you are writing; first off, let me just say that I hear a lot of pain in your writing. I don?t know if you meant that, but at the very least there are a lot of emotions; and I know what I was getting myself into when I created the thread.



I?m not going to argue with you. All I can do is offer my perspective and try to be understanding. We can agree to disagree?



To address your first few points? I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I?m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I?m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don?t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don?t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other?s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won?t be married today, if it weren?t for our church?



That is why I place so much emphasis on genuine community and relationships on the IHB? Far too many times, yes I see that fine looking family at church, they sure look happy on Sundays, but come to find out later that they are getting divorced. Yes, what really matters is what goes on inside not just outside appearances. So, do you let people in? Do you let people see who you are on the inside? Are there people you can share your junk with? Are there people you trust that know your character defects, your deep hurts, bad habits and hang-ups and still love you for who you are?



I agree a lot of relationship get rushed into marriages because people think they aught to settled down. They barely know each other, or they think they know the other person. I personally married out of insecurity (more on that later); well I guess both my wife and I did. But you know what the cool thing is? When we have close communion with God, and live in close community; God can use that and turn that relationship that was meant for destruction and make it good, really good.



I?m not sure what to make of your last point. I hope you are not suggesting that by simply engaging in physical relations that you consider that a marriage. I agree that the physical is so powerful, brain altering and so emotional connective that it does feel like your souls are tie; but that is my point; why should you tie souls or live with just anyone; shouldn?t that be reserved for the one person you completely know, trust and give your heart to?</blockquote>


Dude, you SO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O go to Mariners.

<em>we do life together</em>

It sounds like Kenton in my monitor.

We go to the 11:00 service on Sunday. You?

We will have to meet in the cafe someday.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1243812734]Costal, thank you so much for sharing?

To address your first few points? I go to a large mega church where thousand and thousands of people attend every week. There is no way our family can get to know everyone personally. We might attend Church; but our church, is our small group. They are the people in our community that we do life together. They might not always live in close proximity (Irvine), but we give each other permission to share life, all of it. The good times, the bad times. They are the friends you call on 2am in the morning, when the wife and I are fighting like cats and dogs (I?m not kidding). They are the friends that call it like it is; they are the men who tell me that I?m wrong and that I need to apologize. They are the friends who are for the marriage; they don?t take sides when listening and always try to get the two of us to come back together. These people sure don?t make it easy for us to separate, we always encourage each other?s marriages and the guys are always brain storming new ways to treat the wives better. We won?t be married today, if it weren?t for our church?

</blockquote>


I've heard great things about Mariner's. Even IR2 gave Panda the two thumbs up when I asked him about this church. RC, it seems that you are plugged into an awesome small group. I wish I had friends I can call if my wife and I got in a big fight at 2am in the morning. :)



<a href="http://www.marinerschurch.org/pages/smallgroups.html">http://www.marinerschurch.org/pages/smallgroups.html</a>
 
Wow, Mariners sounds like a good place. I checked out the website and was impressed with the number of ministries, and the willingness to admit church people have the same sorts of problems as the rest of the world. Perhaps "evangelical" churches have started to move in a better direction. (I'm betting I'm nearly a generation older than RC and Panda.... I'm from the "Jesus Freak" generation, Maranatha Village and Calvary Chapel.... which unfortunately seemed to move into just as much legalism as what they wanted to run from.)



I've been in small groups from church, and too often people are afraid to say what they are really thinking or feeling, because they believe they will be judged by the rest of the group. When my now ex-husband and I were going thru pastoral counseling, and we were in serious trouble because of bad financial decisions made by my husband, done over my objections, I was told I shouldn't try to correct my husband, but to allow God to act on his heart, and trust that God would protect me and our 2 daughters from my husband's poor decisions. When I suggested a divorce would also provide us protection, I was told that I wasn't really a Christian, because a real Christian would never suggest divorce.



I guess my first response to your poll was to think that it was getting the situation backwards... the quality and integrity of the relationship is what is important, not what you call it, or the legality of it.
 
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