Are Irvine schools really *that* good?

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S1d_IHB

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A post in another thread got me thinking (the foreign money thread where people are paying top dollar in housing to send their kids to University High).



Who doesn't have friends that went to "no name school" in "nonameville" and got accepted to ivy leagues or equivalents. I've always thought that it wasn't really the school, since the majority of what you learn and succeed in is based on your own effort, discipline, and hard work. I went to a prep school in high school that cost a fortune, but because I was lazy it didn't mean jack at the time.



So from someone who didn't go to school in this area, asking those that know, are the schools really that good here and what makes them so good?
 
<p>I went to cal state Long Beach for my under, but got my master from Carneige, and my PhD from USC. My wife went to Harvard for her under and Carneige and USC for her master and PhD. We also got MBA from USC. Both of us graduated from some no name public high school, and neither of us studied really hard until well into our PhD program. To be honest, high school does not really make a whole lot of difference if one wants to obtain advanced degree. I have friends who went to Irvine high school and San Marino high (One of the best in LA i believe), it helped them getting into UCLA/UCI/Ivy for sure, but in the end, only one of them advanced beyond under. </p>
 
"I don't want to be the product of my environment, I want my environment to be the product of me!" <em>- Frank Costello, the Departed.





</em>It is fair to say that most of us are simply the product of our environment. That is why Most parents want the best environment they can get for their children. A good school district is always one of the top concerns when selecting a house to buy.





All Irvine schools are very good, students test scores clearly tell us. However from my observations, it's kind of a pressure cooker type of learning environment. Some parents may not be comfortable with that. But as one parent said to me, " I rather seeing my daughter worry about math than seeing her stress out about boys, clothes and make-ups."
 
To be honest, I think stress out about boys, clothes and make-ups is a part of growing up. In any case, I am very much against Asian style of schooling and teaching. That style produces excellent followers, but it limits one's ability to innovate.
 
I have clients who are not from the best cities of the County. English is their second language. Actually, most don't even speak English. Their children attend average high schools. Yet, these kids are accepted to Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, etc. Sometimes, it's not that the school but the individual.
 
I don't know where to start...





I'm also not sure what the "Asian Style" of schooling and teaching means...I don't think the Irvine schools teach in any different a fashion than any other school in Orange County, and I also don't think that there are any more "Asian" teachers in these schools.





Then again, if you are referring to the ethnic makeup of the Irvine schools, three our of four Irvine high schools (Irvine, Woodbridge, Northwood) have white students as a majority of the calculation (assuming the distribution of API test takers is indicative of the general population makeup)...





More to the point, where is there any evidence that the "Asian style" of schooling and teaching makes followers and non-innovators? I grew up in an "Asian" household (I'm Japanese American), and I don't consider myself a follower...what's wrong with Asian students? What is the "Asian style" of schooling and teaching anyway?





My personal opinion on the Irvine school matter is that while no school can guarantee that a poor student will succeed, a good school can offer a wider variety of classes, activities, and courses so students can better "fit in" and excel where they are comfortable. This is especially evident in my situation, where the poor school that I went to (Ocean View High School) didn't have a lot of the activities and classes that my wife's school did (Los Alamitos). Things like Jazz band, more AP courses, metalshop, better intramural sports, more languages, etc.





The Irvine schools do a great job of supporting their students with lots of activities and extra-curricular activities, in addition to a very large set of classes. In other words, these schools make it easier to become a more well-rounded student.





In all students, the biggest driver (in my opinion) of success is parental involvement. I don't think anyone would dispute that. <u>But that doesn't mean that a good school plays no role in the success of a student.</u>





-OCR
 
Two of the most influential factors for achieving in school are parents and environments. Sending your child to a good school doesn't mean they will do well, but it increases their chances of hanging out with kids who value school and good grades. I went to a subpar high school but I turned out okay because I was friends with the smarter kids. Once you hang out a particular circle, you do what they do. In addition, I was always a very competitive kid, therefore, I always want to be the best at whatever I did. That mentality really helps. Thus, I think my participation in extra curricular activities played a big role. If a school system have lots of activities, it would greatly increase the chance of my child having confident and being more competitive.
 
<p>You may want to look into this article from <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12532678/site/newsweek/">newsweek</a> that ranks the top 1200 public schools in the US.</p>

<p>If you take a look at california most of the best schools tend to be in San Diego Area then followed by Orange County.</p>
 
<p>The key to successful schooling is parental involvement. "Parent" is both a verb and a noun. Parents who forget this simple concept cannot rely on a top school to make up the difference.</p>
 
<p>This shows that PHD's and master degrees can't change dogmatic view points. Which brings us back to good schools and good parenting. The fact that you are asking about good schools for your child, he or she will do just fine.</p>

<p>This is one plumber's opinion.</p>

<p> </p>
 
Asian style teaching focuses purely on test score, instead of learning the subject. I was educated in four different school systems (Chinese, Germany, Switzerland, and US, talk about interesting childhood). Both Chinese and European systems focus on test score since the national entrance exam is the ultimate judgment of success and failure. US system in contrast, allows much greater flexibility. But now days, the UC system is behaving increasingly like Chinese, Japanese, and German systems, and SAT is used as the main criteria. Since a large percentage of Irvine Asian kids want to go to UC systems, the number of prep center around there mushroomed. From my point of view, this is not healthy, and in the long term, will be harmful to the country.


I agree that PhD education tends to change one's perspective<em><strong> </strong></em>on education, so my view may very well be biased.
 
Tourbillon,





To my knowledge, the UCs are actually moving away from the SAT as the focal point of determining undergrad admissions. For Harvard, MIT, Stanford, etc, a near perfect SAT score is almost a prerequisite, so their adcomms focus on the things that make a kid "special." As a Cal grad, I know that Berkeley's adcomm did away with the SAT + GPA formula back in the late 90s and moved toward a "holistic" approach - probably a response to the elimination of affirmative action. Some other UCs (UCLA) followed suit, while others like UCSD maintain a formula.





As a result, admissions in the past few years from what I hear have been somewhat erratic for UCLA and Cal at least. When my younger sister graduated from Irvine High around 5 years ago, she got into Stanford, UCLA and UCSD, but to my surprise, was rejected from Berkeley's Bio-Engineering program. She had a near perfect SAT (upper 1500s back in the 1600 scoring system) and perfect GPA. She also had excellent ECs (extracurriculars in admissions parlance) - county/state awards for stuff. I've also heard about various family friends whose kids got into Berkeley, but were rejected from UCLA. This Tidal Wave II (whatever they call this new population bump) has created a logjam in the pipeline to the UCs. The UC adcomms have much more qualified students then they know what to do with, so nothing is really guaranteed even with "perfect" test scores and GPAs.





I agree with OCR that parental involvement is the single most important factor in determining your kids' success. (I posted my thoughts on this in a post a few months back). To expand on OCR's other point, schools are also important. Of course, you have many stories like Tourbillon of kids going to less than desirable primary education schools and succeeding later in life, but in today's admissions game, every little thing helps - and what "good" schools can provide are good teachers (really good teachers are few and far between in my experiences) and a wide selection of AP courses. From what I remember, Newsweek's API ranking of public high schools used to be based mainly on the AP tests, which are sort of useless in my opinion (they used to base the criteria on how many AP tests with a score of 3 or higher - a pass, which is pretty easy to do - so the more tests being taken, the higher the API ranking). The final thing that predicts a kid's success is basically their own competitive drive and sheer talent/brainpower- competitiveness is something you might be able to instill early in your kids, but good ole genetics determine the rest. And even if they are smart and talented, do they have the mental fortitude to avoid burning out? Who knows.





On the final point of "Asian style teaching," I understand what Tourbillon is talking about in terms of the rote memorization, math drills, and heavy emphasis on passing standardized entrance exams. The common criticism is that this education paradigm stifles "thinking outside of the box," and it is probably true to a degree - an Economist article that I read back talked about how Chinese engineers/ PhD students were excellent in the theory and fundamentals, but didn't know how to apply them to real world situations. On the other hand, you have Craig Barrett, Bill Gates, and Irvine's own Henry Samueli venting how the US education system is failing to churn out the necessary scientists and engineers to fuel our technological progress, and how the US should basically give a visa to any immigrant with a Masters or PhD in science and engineering. Where are most of those immigrants coming from? India and China ("Asian style teaching" countries). Also, no one can accuse Japan, which is notorious for its emphasis on entrance exams of not thinking outside the box. See Toyota/Lexus(self-parking LS, hybrids), Nintendo(Wii), Honda (robotics), Sony (um...not a good track record as of late, but good history of innovation).





To answer the original poster's question - as a product of the school system here (80s through 90s), in my opinion, the schools are pretty good, but not STELLAR. What makes them good? The teachers. Obviously, your mileage may vary from subject to subject, so it's probably important to know who are the star teachers in the area. Usually, (but I stress NOT ALL THE TIME) they are the ones teaching the AP/honors courses.





As an engineer, I'm not sure Irvine's school system is conducive to churning out people in my profession (computer science, physics), but I think it is pretty good in the bio/ medical field. I think the closest thing that I got to a technology education back in school was playing Oregon Trail on a Apple IIe. The physics teachers I had were lackluster in generating enthusiasm and interest in the subject. I would say Nor Cal does a better job at doing that - but then again, it's probably due to the high concentration of engineering parents (and teachers) there.





I think I wrote too much. Hope something helps.
 
Tourbillon.........





Thanks for your comments...........Like you I am very educated. I have a B.S. in Chemistry and Math from Appalachian State University, An M.S. from Purdue, a Ph.D. from Wesleyan University. I did a post doc at Cal Tech and got an Ex MBA at Stanford. I find that intellect is something that you are born with, like a good voice or the ability to do well in a sport. From high school performance, there is know way of knowing who will have the intellect to achiever in the academic ladder.





I can tell you that the U.S. school system is very accpeting of those that are willing to work hard. I was a high school flunky, that got serious about school when I was about 19. The system accepted me and allowed me to accellerate over a period of about 7 years. In the great schools, the gifted students come from all walks of life,,,,,,,,small towns all over the world. This is probably one of the great strenths of the U.S. education system.





Here is a story about irvine schools......my son was taking physics in Northwood, and getting an F. I called the teacher and found ou the folllowing.....my son got an A on all the tests, my son was the only student that could do his labs without help. He did not do 63 out of 63 homework assignments and thus was getting an F. He refused to do the homework and got an F. Same thing happened in history english and every other "academic" subject......so on Wednesday, my son graduates from high school with a D- average. He is happy becasue he thinks that he beat the system by doing less work than any one else in the school....and still graduating.





Well, is he smart or stupid.........time will tell.
 
Western or open style has to do with social opportunities than “education”.There are millions of Asian immigrantsdoing well in the United States.

When “Asian Style” education meets opportunity it will do very well. However, the opposite is not true. What could have Bill Gates accomplished had he moved to China when he was in 20’s?
 
i disagree with tourbillon. asian style education instills discipline and produces better warriors. it does require much dedication and focused intensity which is why only a superstar like tom cruise can accomplish it.
 
It's kind of like "grass greener on other side" mentality. Those living in Asia look at US schools and say "wow, they're so much more creative, we need to change our ways", and those in the US look at Asia and say "OMG look at their student's scores, we need to improve".



 
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